Silk and Steel Spec Guitar

[Mark Hatcher]

I'm thinking about making a guitar specifically for silk and steel strings.
I would like to hear what people think about this. Here is a list of my random thoughts so far;

I don't think anyone makes a silk and steel (S+S) guitar

S+S sound and tension falls somewhere between steel and nylon string guitars

Some folks want an easier to play guitar but, don't want to loose their calluses playing nylon

Nylon strings don't sound good on a steel string so why would S+S sound optimum?

A nylon string guitar can be as loud as a steel string so a properly set up S+S could probably be made as loud as well.

I've got lots of ideas for optimizing the bracing

I'm hoping to start a conversation here and invite the thoughts of other builders too.

Thanks!
Mark

[printer2]

Was building a lightly braced guitar but was thinking about using extra light strings. The project is not really practical in the larger sense as I was using balsa for the guitar. That one has been put on the shelf for the moment, working on some other projects.

Looked up some numbers and looks like they are in the same range.

EJ40 Silk & Steel Folk 11-47, 127 lbs

EZ900 85/15 Bronze Extra Light 10-50, 134 lbs

Curious as to your ideas on the top. Do a fan styled bracing to tweak the treble out of the S&S or go for a light X brace? I have a birch guitar that I am building right now but have not done the bracing of the top or back yet. Might be fun to make it a low tension build. But I would have to loose the funky looking spruce I have for the top as it is fairly dense. And the scale length is 24", might be a little slack for S&S's.

[WilliamS]

I recently built a 0-ish size guitar, specifically for silk and steel, for a good friend (and great guitarist)'s little boy. My thought being that the lower tension would be easier to learn on.

I used walnut for b&S, cedar for the top, and built it very lightly-definitely wouldn't want to put strings any heavier on it.

It ended up weighing 2lbs 11oz strung up and sounded great for finger picking and good for strumming. It didn't have the most headroom, but it really didn't take much to get a lot of sound out of it. Volume was quite good. Probably wouldn't keep up with a good dreadnought but surprisingly loud for such a small instrument.

Having said that, I don't really know how much of a market there is for S&S so you might not be able to sell it super quickly...but I can tell you, I wouldn't have minded in the least having the one I built around the shop for a while longer. I've actually been thinking of building another for myself.

[Mark Hatcher]

Originally Posted by printer2

Curious as to your ideas on the top. Do a fan styled bracing to tweak the treble out of the S&S or go for a light X brace? I have a birch guitar that I am building right now but have not done the bracing of the top or back yet. Might be fun to make it a low tension build. But I would have to loose the funky looking spruce I have for the top as it is fairly dense. And the scale length is 24", might be a little slack for S&S's.

I am considering two general brace patterns, one is a light x-brace with fan braces from the bridge plate out between the two lower legs of the x-brace.
This would encourage cross dipole action helpful for the upper mids.

The second approach would be a ladder braced pattern. I am aware of people putting S&S on old vintage ladder type guitars with some success. The pattern encourages long dipole vibration which pronounces upper mids and treble even more than fan bracing.

Overall my objective is to try for a tone more like a regular steel string guitar rather than a nylon stringed guitar.

I do believe a longer scale helps more than a short scale as it tends to be a bit brighter.

[Mark Hatcher]

Originally Posted by WilliamS

I recently built a 0-ish size guitar, specifically for silk and steel, for a good friend (and great guitarist)'s little boy. My thought being that the lower tension would be easier to learn on.

I used walnut for b&S, cedar for the top, and built it very lightly-definitely wouldn't want to put strings any heavier on it.

It ended up weighing 2lbs 11oz strung up and sounded great for finger picking and good for strumming. It didn't have the most headroom, but it really didn't take much to get a lot of sound out of it. Volume was quite good. Probably wouldn't keep up with a good dreadnought but surprisingly loud for such a small instrument.

Having said that, I don't really know how much of a market there is for S&S so you might not be able to sell it super quickly...but I can tell you, I wouldn't have minded in the least having the one I built around the shop for a while longer. I've actually been thinking of building another for myself.

Good to hear, thanks for that! Yeah, lightly built to help make the most from the lower energy of S&S strings. Maybe redwood would have a brighter advantage on the cedar?

It certainly would be a niche guitar but it's interesting that after making one you're thinking of making one for yourself! If I make one I only have to sell one (advantage of being a small operation).

[printer2]

Torrified Engelmann?

[Jeff Scott]

Originally Posted by printer2

Torrified Engelmann?

Terrified Englishman?

[Explorer]

I thought last year's article in American Lutherie #122, detailing Dutch luthier Jan van Cappelle's construction of a guitar to Stradivari's specifications, was interesting. Here's his blog post about it.

https://thedutchluthier.wordpress.co...-guitar-maker/

I always thought Dixie Michell had some interesting ideas on guitar construction, with a rod that connects neck to heel block.

http://www.theguitarcompanyofamerica.com/about.html

I have another friend who got into the idea of minimal string deflection instruments, and minimization of non-string-vibration stresses on the top, allowing it to act more purely as a soundboard and not as a structural support. He uses a rod system akin to Dixie's with a tailpiece so the soundboard isn't the attachment point. He's an amateur builder in the purest sense, pursuing builds out of love of the art. I got to play one of his flat-tops with a floating soundboard, which was surprisingly light and loud.

I'll be interested in seeing pics and hearing clips of what you come up with!

[Mark Hatcher]

Thanks Explorer,

It's interesting to read other's views on bracing a guitar. With experience some builders are able to get consistent and predictable results. I am at that point in my career which is why I would try to challenge myself to make an optimized S&S guitar. Part of doing this is to test the effectiveness of what I think I know.

[dekutree64]

Originally Posted by Mark Hatcher

It's interesting to read other's views on bracing a guitar. With experience some builders are able to get consistent and predictable results. I am at that point in my career which is why I would try to challenge myself to make an optimized S&S guitar. Part of doing this is to test the effectiveness of what I think I know.

Do it! Even if it doesn't sell for as much as a commission build, the knowledge gained will be worth the effort. And I'd really appreciate if you document the build and write your thoughts along the way, so the rest of us can learn from it too

I can't decide what sort of bracing I'd do for it. The two challenges are getting enough brightness to the silks, and enough oomph to the steels. I do think long scale is good. Or possibly fan frets if you swap out the two high strings for one gauge thicker, but that seems like cheating

[WilliamS]

Originally Posted by dekutree64

The two challenges are getting enough brightness to the silks, and enough oomph to the steels. I do think long scale is good. Or possibly fan frets if you swap out the two high strings for one gauge thicker, but that seems like cheating

Well, idk if getting enough brightness from the wound strings is necessarily a problem...guess it depends on what you're going for. It's not going to sound exactly like a steel string guitar regardless.

If you go with heavier trebles then you end up with a really big difference in tension between the wound and the two top strings. The one I built for S&S definitely didn't need extra oomph on the steels. If anything, I'd be tempted to go a touch heavier on the bottom to even out the tension.
Obviously fanning the frets would help with that, too.

They definitely feel a bit different than steel but I play a fair amount of nylon so I don't mind.

[dekutree64]

Hmm, perhaps it's time to add a set to my next string order. It's been a while since I've ever actually played them with my own hands, and I have a guitar that's similar to what I'd try for a silk&steel design, just with the soundboard stiffness/mass bumped up to handle steels. Should be interesting to see how they sound on it.

[rogthefrog]

Originally Posted by Mark Hatcher

I am considering two general brace patterns, one is a light x-brace with fan braces from the bridge plate out between the two lower legs of the x-brace.
This would encourage cross dipole action helpful for the upper mids.

The second approach would be a ladder braced pattern. I am aware of people putting S&S on old vintage ladder type guitars with some success. The pattern encourages long dipole vibration which pronounces upper mids and treble even more than fan bracing.

Overall my objective is to try for a tone more like a regular steel string guitar rather than a nylon stringed guitar.

I do believe a longer scale helps more than a short scale as it tends to be a bit brighter.

For what it's worth, I'd be very curious about a long-scale guitar with fan bracing and S&S strings. Considerably more so than ladder bracing. Cedar or redwood over any number of B&S woods would be interesting--cypress, pear, myrtlewood, walnut, or any of the rosewoods.

Yum.

[Mark Hatcher]

Originally Posted by rogthefrog

For what it's worth, I'd be very curious about a long-scale guitar with fan bracing and S&S strings. Considerably more so than ladder bracing. Cedar or redwood over any number of B&S woods would be interesting--cypress, pear, myrtlewood, walnut, or any of the rosewoods.

Yum.

Yeah, my inclination would be fan bracing also. I don't know a lot about ladder braced tops and hoped some proponents might jump in with a good case.
I am also warming up to the idea of a mild fan fret for this. Potentially it would help with both sound and the feel of wound strings.

[sirwhale]

I've often wondered why there aren't more guitars built for lighter strings. It seems like nearly everything is built for 12s-13s, so when you want to go down some gauges you have to compromise.

I think it's a good idea.