The Acoustic Guitar Forum

Go Back   The Acoustic Guitar Forum > General Acoustic Guitar and Amplification Discussion > PLAY and Write

Reply
 
Thread Tools
  #16  
Old 02-13-2018, 04:01 PM
ChrisN ChrisN is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2017
Location: Seattle Area
Posts: 1,508
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by RockyRacc00n View Post
Knowing the 12 notes of the chromatic scale vs understanding how other scales are constructed from these 12 notes are different things. But let's set that aside for now.

Still not getting visual of what you are playing. How many notes are in the song you are playing, at least up to the part where it sounds right in one position but starts to sound not right in another? Can you tell us the notes you are playing when it sounds right? Or may be tell us the string and the fret numbers?

I would dial this question back and ask, do you know how to construct a major scale in each key from the 12 notes of the chromatic scale?

But setting 1) and 3) aside, can you tell us what I asked in 2) to see if we get at this mystery =).
Your para 1 - I know how to create other scales from the chromatic scale, though I've yet to actually sit down and work through the process.

Your para 2 - The song is Speak Softly, Love (aka Godfather theme) by Nino Rota.

As written in G, played in 1st position (b and e = open strings), 1st 12 notes:
b e g | #f e g e #f e c d | b

As written in G, played starting the first two notes on at 9th fret, D and G strings: (same as above)

Played starting 1st 2 notes on 7th fret, D and G strings:
a d f | e d f e d #a c | a

Played starting 1st 2 notes on 5th fret, D and G strings:
g c #d |d c #d c d c #g #a | g

Played starting 1st 2 notes on 3rd fret, D and G strings:
f #a #c | c #a #c #a c #a #f #g | f

Re: "Doesn't sound right": I started the song from the same frets, but on the A/D strings, then on the E/A strings, and should correct my earlier observation that it doesn't sound like the song. The song is recognizable, but the same pattern played from those strings sounds distinctly unpleasant and discordant, which was not the case when played from the first position (open strings for 1st 2 notes), or the middle strings at multiple locations, as described.

Thanks for your interest and help with getting me over this hurdle.
Reply With Quote
  #17  
Old 02-13-2018, 04:12 PM
ChrisN ChrisN is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2017
Location: Seattle Area
Posts: 1,508
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by mr. beaumont View Post
Here's a simple starting point...

Jeff, I hate the word "awesome" as appropriated by kids today, but I'll use it for you. Thanks so much for putting that together - I'll be watching that several more times, at least. I understood it on the walk-through, but I want to work through it physically to get a true feel for those relationships. I get the musical v. physical space thing, and it answers one of my original questions about how the same thing can be played elsewhere on different notes (except, apparently, if the B string is involved, due to tuning, so I need to think about that one).

I also get that, played elsewhere via different notes, the song is necessarily in a different key, though I still need to work through Erithon's heady info re: how to determine the key, as I may have exceeded my grey matter quotient for the day.

This is exciting stuff. Thanks again.
Reply With Quote
  #18  
Old 02-13-2018, 04:30 PM
RockyRacc00n RockyRacc00n is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2017
Posts: 576
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisN View Post
Your para 1 - I know how to create other scales from the chromatic scale, though I've yet to actually sit down and work through the process.

Your para 2 - The song is Speak Softly, Love (aka Godfather theme) by Nino Rota.

As written in G, played in 1st position (b and e = open strings), 1st 12 notes:
b e g | #f e g e #f e c d | b

As written in G, played starting the first two notes on at 9th fret, D and G strings: (same as above)

Played starting 1st 2 notes on 7th fret, D and G strings:
a d f | e d f e d #a c | a

Played starting 1st 2 notes on 5th fret, D and G strings:
g c #d |d c #d c d c #g #a | g

Played starting 1st 2 notes on 3rd fret, D and G strings:
f #a #c | c #a #c #a c #a #f #g | f

Re: "Doesn't sound right": I started the song from the same frets, but on the A/D strings, then on the E/A strings, and should correct my earlier observation that it doesn't sound like the song. The song is recognizable, but the same pattern played from those strings sounds distinctly unpleasant and discordant, which was not the case when played from the first position (open strings for 1st 2 notes), or the middle strings at multiple locations, as described.

Thanks for your interest and help with getting me over this hurdle.
Mr Beuamont gave a good vid on the interval. It's not a difficult concept. I'm interested in this because I also just started to understand it (well more like be aware because it's not hard to understand), so your question peeked my interest.

As you think about all this stuff, I find that actually writing out the 12 notes on paper, C, C#, D, Eb, ... all the way up to Bb, B and visually seeing where the note you just played is and where you are going to, helps to know the interval. And as long as you are playing the same intervals, regardless of where start, as long as you are mindful of going to and from the B string, your song should sound like the song. Anyway, all this was said already.


I'm going to use this as an exercise today when I go home and do my practice and see what you are doing. Hopefully I can come back with something helpful.
Reply With Quote
  #19  
Old 02-13-2018, 04:59 PM
ChrisN ChrisN is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2017
Location: Seattle Area
Posts: 1,508
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by RockyRacc00n View Post
Mr Beuamont gave a good vid on the interval. It's not a difficult concept. I'm interested in this because I also just started to understand it (well more like be aware because it's not hard to understand), so your question peeked my interest.

As you think about all this stuff, I find that actually writing out the 12 notes on paper, C, C#, D, Eb, ... all the way up to Bb, B and visually seeing where the note you just played is and where you are going to, helps to know the interval. And as long as you are playing the same intervals, regardless of where start, as long as you are mindful of going to and from the B string, your song should sound like the song. Anyway, all this was said already.


I'm going to use this as an exercise today when I go home and do my practice and see what you are doing. Hopefully I can come back with something helpful.
I agree I need to take the time to work through things on actual paper, rather than trying to keep them in mind and apply them later, after things have faded a bit. Looking forward to your input.
Reply With Quote
  #20  
Old 02-13-2018, 05:05 PM
RockyRacc00n RockyRacc00n is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2017
Posts: 576
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisN View Post
As written in G, played in 1st position (b and e = open strings), 1st 12 notes:
b e g | #f e g e #f e c d | b

As written in G, played starting the first two notes on at 9th fret, D and G strings: (same as above)

Played starting 1st 2 notes on 7th fret, D and G strings:
a d f | e d f e d #a c | a

Played starting 1st 2 notes on 5th fret, D and G strings:
g c #d |d c #d c d c #g #a | g

Played starting 1st 2 notes on 3rd fret, D and G strings:
f #a #c | c #a #c #a c #a #f #g | f
One more thing, what does the slash notation [ | ] mean?

Also, your notation doesn't give what string/fret you are playing to play the note you think you are playing... because you may not be playing the notes you think you are.

If you want to do this, you have to provide better notation. For example taking this particular run

Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisN View Post
Played starting 1st 2 notes on 3rd fret, D and G strings:
f #a #c | c #a #c #a c #a #f #g | f
Your # notation is placed before the note, so I'm going to assume, what you mean is, the first two note are F and A#(really Bb, but we'll go with A#, same thing.)

So, if you are saying note 1 (F) and note 2 (A#) is played on the 3rd fret of D and G string, then I would notate it this way.

Note1: 3D
Note2: 3G

And indeed, 3D is the note F. And 3G is the note A#.

But not knowing where you are playing the other notes, we don't know if you are playing the notes you says you are.

It's gonna be crazy to write this out for all your runs, so if you really want to work this out, write it out for the run that doesn't sound right.


As I said in the previous reply, I'm gonna try to play this later tonight and see if we can get somewhere.
Reply With Quote
  #21  
Old 02-13-2018, 05:39 PM
ChrisN ChrisN is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2017
Location: Seattle Area
Posts: 1,508
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by RockyRacc00n View Post
One more thing, what does the slash notation [ | ] mean?

Also, your notation doesn't give what string/fret you are playing to play the note you think you are playing... because you may not be playing the notes you think you are.

If you want to do this, you have to provide better notation. For example taking this particular run



Your # notation is placed before the note, so I'm going to assume, what you mean is, the first two note are F and A#(really Bb, but we'll go with A#, same thing.)

So, if you are saying note 1 (F) and note 2 (A#) is played on the 3rd fret of D and G string, then I would notate it this way.

Note1: 3D
Note2: 3G

And indeed, 3D is the note F. And 3G is the note A#.

But not knowing where you are playing the other notes, we don't know if you are playing the notes you says you are.

It's gonna be crazy to write this out for all your runs, so if you really want to work this out, write it out for the run that doesn't sound right.


As I said in the previous reply, I'm gonna try to play this later tonight and see if we can get somewhere.
Apologies for the confusing presentation. The vertical line are bar lines signifying the new measure. I put the # in front of the note affected as that's the way it's shown on my sheet music.

I think I'm getting more comfortable with this concept, but if you're curious about the pattern, here's what I did for the 12 note run:

Following example assumes starting on 7th fret, but pattern is the same regardless of which where you start on the D/G strings (using 1st 2 notes as your start point on those strings).

1st note - A on the D string.
2nd note - D on the G string.
3rd note - drop to next closest treble string (B) and go down 1 fret, play that note (F on B string, in case of 7th fret start point).
4th note - same string, go down 1 more fret, play that note (A# on B string).
5th note - same string/fret as 2d note (eg, if at 7th fret, 5th note is D on G string).
6th note - same note as 3rd note.
7th note - same as 5th (2nd) note.
8th note - same as 4th (3rd) note.
9th note - same as 5th note
10th note - F on the A string (8th fret)
11th note - C on the G string (5th fret)
12th note - A on the D string (7th fret) (this is also the 1st note)

Hope that works!

As for the bad-sounding version, simply play that same pattern starting on the A/D strings (instead of the D/G strings), and E/A strings - yuk.
Reply With Quote
  #22  
Old 02-13-2018, 08:21 PM
RockyRacc00n RockyRacc00n is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2017
Posts: 576
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisN View Post
Apologies for the confusing presentation. The vertical line are bar lines signifying the new measure. I put the # in front of the note affected as that's the way it's shown on my sheet music.

I think I'm getting more comfortable with this concept, but if you're curious about the pattern, here's what I did for the 12 note run:

Following example assumes starting on 7th fret, but pattern is the same regardless of which where you start on the D/G strings (using 1st 2 notes as your start point on those strings).

1st note - A on the D string.
2nd note - D on the G string.
3rd note - drop to next closest treble string (B) and go down 1 fret, play that note (F on B string, in case of 7th fret start point).
4th note - same string, go down 1 more fret, play that note (A# on B string).
5th note - same string/fret as 2d note (eg, if at 7th fret, 5th note is D on G string).
6th note - same note as 3rd note.
7th note - same as 5th (2nd) note.
8th note - same as 4th (3rd) note.
9th note - same as 5th note
10th note - F on the A string (8th fret)
11th note - C on the G string (5th fret)
12th note - A on the D string (7th fret) (this is also the 1st note)

Hope that works!

As for the bad-sounding version, simply play that same pattern starting on the A/D strings (instead of the D/G strings), and E/A strings - yuk.
I just got home and played this song. Now thanks to you, I know how to play God father in several positions.

Alright... so it goes back to your understanding of the B string.

Your notation is still kind confusing but I played enough to know where you are getting messed up. It starts to go bad on the 3rd note, right?

When you start the song on the 7th fret D string, the sequence of the notes are,

Note 1: 7th fret D string (A)
Note 2: 7th fret G string (D)
Note 3: 6th fret B string (F)
Ok, that sounds like the first 3 notes of God Father.

Now, play the same pattern starting from the 7th fret A string
Note 1: 7th fret A string (E)
Note 2: 7th fret D string (A)
Note 3: 6th fret G string (C#)
No, that doesn't sound like God Father.

Instead, play the 5th fret of the G string (C) for Note 3, and that's God Father.


And this has to do with being aware of the intervals between Note 1 and Note 2, and again between Note 2 and Note 3.

In order for the song to sound right, the interval between Note 1 and Note 2 has to be 5 semitones (5 frets) apart. And the interval between Note 2 and Note 3 has to be 3 semitones (3 frets) apart, regardless of where you start Note 1.

The pattern that you played (when the B string was involved) was a pattern that facilitated these intervals. But you can not play the same pattern when you shifted strings. That pattern, starting from the A string is doing 5 semitones, and 4 semitones. As you noticed, you had to play the 5th fret. That's where the 3rd note is in that pattern that is 3 semitones away from the previous.

Last edited by RockyRacc00n; 02-13-2018 at 09:54 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #23  
Old 02-13-2018, 08:57 PM
mr. beaumont mr. beaumont is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Chicago, IL
Posts: 10,188
Default

Not trying to be an ***, but if you want to understand this, time to put the guitar down, grab a $50 keyboard and a copy of "music theory for dummies"

All this 10 paragraph, position talk and "how many frets" apart is guitar xentric. Music is not.

And don't take the title of that book as insulting, it's excellent.
__________________
Jeff Matz, Jazz Guitar:

http://www.youtube.com/user/jeffreymatz
Reply With Quote
  #24  
Old 02-13-2018, 09:07 PM
RockyRacc00n RockyRacc00n is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2017
Posts: 576
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by mr. beaumont View Post
Not trying to be an ***, but if you want to understand this, time to put the guitar down, grab a $50 keyboard and a copy of "music theory for dummies"

All this 10 paragraph, position talk and "how many frets" apart is guitar xentric. Music is not.

And don't take the title of that book as insulting, it's excellent.


Haha seems I got over zealous with explaining this.

ChrisN, hope you are on your way to understand this. Otherwise cut the B string out from your guitar.
Reply With Quote
  #25  
Old 02-13-2018, 09:19 PM
mr. beaumont mr. beaumont is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Chicago, IL
Posts: 10,188
Default

No really, your explanation is fine, but if we talked in terms of music and not fret positions, these answers could be 5 words instead of 5 paragraphs.
__________________
Jeff Matz, Jazz Guitar:

http://www.youtube.com/user/jeffreymatz
Reply With Quote
  #26  
Old 02-14-2018, 10:37 AM
ChrisN ChrisN is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2017
Location: Seattle Area
Posts: 1,508
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by RockyRacc00n View Post
Haha seems I got over zealous with explaining this.

ChrisN, hope you are on your way to understand this. Otherwise cut the B string out from your guitar.
I am well on my way to understanding, I'm 80% of the way through Music Theory for Dummies, and I've removed the B strings from my guitars. Good to go.

Thanks to all for the helpful input.
Reply With Quote
  #27  
Old 02-15-2018, 08:33 AM
JonPR JonPR is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Posts: 6,450
Default

Also, knowing how to post a melody in tab would help! (Bracket the text in code tags, # button in advanced reply window.) Here's the first phrase of the theme, in the key you're playing it in (D minor, like the original):

Code:
E-------|----------------|---
B-----6-|5---6---5-------|---
G---7---|--7---7---7---5-|---
D-7-----|------------8---|7--
A-------|----------------|---
E-------|----------------|---
Here's how it would be if transferred one string lower, in the same position (which puts it in the key of A minor):
Code:
-------|----------------|---
-------|----------------|---
-----5-|4---5---4-------|---
---7---|--7---7---7---5-|---
-7-----|------------8---|7--
-------|----------------|---
The 3rd string notes are all now 1 fret lower than in the first key.

This - as you may now realise - is because the G and B strings on guitar are tuned a different interval apart from the other strings. They are a "major 3rd" (4 frets) apart, while the other pairs (E-A, A-D, D-G, B-E) are all a perfect 4th apart (5 semitones/frets).

The interval between the 2nd and 3rd notes of the tune is a "minor 3rd" = 3 semitones (frets). So - in the first example - to get the 3rd note on the B string, you take account of the 4-semitone difference between the strings, and drops back 1 fret.

In the second example, the 3rd note is on the G string. This string is tuned 5 semitones higher than the D string, so the note has to drop back 2 frets. Get it?

Try playing the tune like this (back in D minor), it may help to understand how it works (index finger on fret 7 now). 10th fret on the G string is the same note as 6th fret on the B string.
Code:
--------|------------------|----
--------|------------------|----
---7-10-|9-7-10-7-9-7------|----
-7------|-------------8-10-|7---
--------|------------------|----
--------|------------------|----
Or even like this (use any finger(s) you like!):
Code:
--------|-----------------|----
--------|-----------------|----
-2-7-10-|9-7-10-7-9-7-3-5-|2----
--------|-----------------|---
--------|-----------------|----
--------|-----------------|----
 A D F   E D F  D E D Bb C A
Then you really see (a) how the interval structure of the tune works, and (b) why the guitar is tuned the way it is - so you don't have to run up and down the neck to play a melody (like this), but can play it in one position without moving your hand (as above).

The guitar could be tuned all in perfect 4ths - EADGCF - which would make the patterns across the strings all the same (so you would not have been asking your original question ). However - although a small minority of guitarists do tune that way - it that makes other things - such as some chord shapes - more difficult.

Of course none of us would have this trouble if we'd decided to learn PIANO instead!
__________________
"There is a crack in everything. That's how the light gets in." - Leonard Cohen.

Last edited by JonPR; 02-15-2018 at 08:48 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #28  
Old 02-15-2018, 01:12 PM
ChrisN ChrisN is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2017
Location: Seattle Area
Posts: 1,508
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonPR View Post
Also, knowing how to post a melody in tab would help! (Bracket the text in code tags, # button in advanced reply window.) Here's the first phrase of the theme, in the key you're playing it in (D minor, like the original):

Code:
E-------|----------------|---
B-----6-|5---6---5-------|---
G---7---|--7---7---7---5-|---
D-7-----|------------8---|7--
A-------|----------------|---
E-------|----------------|---
Here's how it would be if transferred one string lower, in the same position (which puts it in the key of A minor):
Code:
-------|----------------|---
-------|----------------|---
-----5-|4---5---4-------|---
---7---|--7---7---7---5-|---
-7-----|------------8---|7--
-------|----------------|---
The 3rd string notes are all now 1 fret lower than in the first key.

This - as you may now realise - is because the G and B strings on guitar are tuned a different interval apart from the other strings. They are a "major 3rd" (4 frets) apart, while the other pairs (E-A, A-D, D-G, B-E) are all a perfect 4th apart (5 semitones/frets).

The interval between the 2nd and 3rd notes of the tune is a "minor 3rd" = 3 semitones (frets). So - in the first example - to get the 3rd note on the B string, you take account of the 4-semitone difference between the strings, and drops back 1 fret.

In the second example, the 3rd note is on the G string. This string is tuned 5 semitones higher than the D string, so the note has to drop back 2 frets. Get it?

Try playing the tune like this (back in D minor), it may help to understand how it works (index finger on fret 7 now). 10th fret on the G string is the same note as 6th fret on the B string.
Code:
--------|------------------|----
--------|------------------|----
---7-10-|9-7-10-7-9-7------|----
-7------|-------------8-10-|7---
--------|------------------|----
--------|------------------|----
Or even like this (use any finger(s) you like!):
Code:
--------|-----------------|----
--------|-----------------|----
-2-7-10-|9-7-10-7-9-7-3-5-|2----
--------|-----------------|---
--------|-----------------|----
--------|-----------------|----
 A D F   E D F  D E D Bb C A
Then you really see (a) how the interval structure of the tune works, and (b) why the guitar is tuned the way it is - so you don't have to run up and down the neck to play a melody (like this), but can play it in one position without moving your hand (as above).

The guitar could be tuned all in perfect 4ths - EADGCF - which would make the patterns across the strings all the same (so you would not have been asking your original question ). However - although a small minority of guitarists do tune that way - it that makes other things - such as some chord shapes - more difficult.

Of course none of us would have this trouble if we'd decided to learn PIANO instead!
Thanks Jon, that's some good "keeper" info for my note stash. I'll work through your sample later today.

I learned to read notation, but have only just started looking at TAB. Your post shows "/code" on both ends of your TAB excerpts - is that a choice on the Advanced menu for posting here? Or something you inserted from another media/venue/program?
Reply With Quote
  #29  
Old 02-15-2018, 02:48 PM
SunnyDee SunnyDee is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2016
Location: Washington, DC
Posts: 1,031
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisN View Post

At that point, the pattern looked like it could be played anywhere on the board, regardless of what notes came under hand, sort of like a scale shape.
Just a note to add, because everyone is doing a great job explaining already - but, yes, it's exactly like a scale shape because a scale is just one pattern of intervals. The major scale is always the same pattern, W W H W W H W. When we start that pattern on different notes, we change key. Same concept.

An aside, although I learned looking first at a keyboard, I've since decided that there's no reason it can't be taught first on guitar if we get away from the "put your hands in this shape to form a chord" form of teaching and teach, instead, the pattern of intervals across the strings in the tuning we use. Possibly a different discussion, though.
__________________
"Militantly left-handed."

Lefty Acoustics

Martin 00-15M
Taylor 320e Baritone

Cheap Righty Classical (played upside down ala Elizabeth Cotten)

Last edited by SunnyDee; 02-15-2018 at 02:54 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #30  
Old 02-15-2018, 05:58 PM
JonPR JonPR is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Posts: 6,450
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisN View Post
Thanks Jon, that's some good "keeper" info for my note stash. I'll work through your sample later today.

I learned to read notation, but have only just started looking at TAB. Your post shows "/code" on both ends of your TAB excerpts - is that a choice on the Advanced menu for posting here? Or something you inserted from another media/venue/program?
That's interesting, I'm only seeing "Code" at the top of the tab examples, which appear in their own box. Are you seeing the tab in proportional font?

As I said, the # button above the reply window enters opening and closing CODE tags. Anything you type (or paste from elsewhere) between them appears in proportional font. Or select the text and then hit #.

BTW, well done on learning notation before tab! I did the same, although that was a long long time ago.... Tab didn't exist back then (except in old lute notation).
__________________
"There is a crack in everything. That's how the light gets in." - Leonard Cohen.
Reply With Quote
Reply

  The Acoustic Guitar Forum > General Acoustic Guitar and Amplification Discussion > PLAY and Write

Thread Tools





All times are GMT -6. The time now is 03:34 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
Copyright ©2000 - 2022, The Acoustic Guitar Forum
vB Ad Management by =RedTyger=