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  #31  
Old 12-05-2016, 12:01 PM
darrwhit darrwhit is offline
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Originally Posted by spike66 View Post
I can't quit my job. I retired two years ago.
Oh just rub it in...

Seriously though, hats off to you for setting an aggressive goal. I wish you the best in getting there (and for the NGD of course).
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  #32  
Old 12-10-2016, 05:42 PM
Clallam Clallam is offline
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Originally Posted by WonderMonkey View Post

One thing I'm wondering though how to know how to do the walkups (and walkdowns) when looking at a new piece of music. Have people just done it enough that they know how to go from one chord to another or do they know the theory behind them and apply that as they go?

I am interested in learning the "why" for theory but I tend to bog myself down on that. If people learn it a bit then just play and through repetition know the common changes then that's what I'll make myself do as well.
I had a breakthrough on that last month. I attempted walk-ups (Vol. 1, Exercise 9) for the first time and was having problems. I was trying to figure out which fingers to move and when to move them and couldn't find something that worked. I searched on google and found this page: http://www.guitarnoise.com/lessons/c...e-dots-part-2/ which walks through the finger moves step by step and also discusses why the writer chooses those moves. That's when I realized he was using the moment when the open string is played to re-position for the next chord and that position was guiding his fingering choices. Now I know what my goal is I find it easier to figure other walk-ups/downs out.

I did one other thing that helped. Dan talks about going up and down the scale between the root notes. Since I couldn't play the scale, that wasn't helpful. I found the G major scale in the book (Vol. 1, p. 91-92), and started learning it. I found as I got better with the scale, finding the notes I needed for the bass runs and getting my fingers to them became much easier.

I found a little theory helpful. More wouldn't help with this, I'm just going to have to do a lot of practice.

I find it frustrating how experienced people trying to teach forget to explain stuff they do on a sub-conscious level. It sure makes it hard for a beginner when some critical fundamental isn't mentioned. I have done a lot of teaching (in an unrelated subject) so I am on the lookout for this. When I suspect missing pieces, I look for other sources to fill in the gaps. This fingering thing is a perfect example. I'll bet Dan hasn't thought about his fingering choices for bass runs in years, he just plays and those drilled in patterns happen automatically. For me, it's a different story.
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  #33  
Old 12-11-2016, 11:11 AM
WonderMonkey WonderMonkey is offline
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Originally Posted by Clallam View Post
I had a breakthrough on that last month. I ....
Thanks for all that! It's exactly the kind of thing that I really enjoy adding to what I'm learning. I'm willing to take the time to do exactly what you are doing instead of zooming through the lessons.

Twelve days from now I'll be doing my little Christmas group thing and then I can devote more time to this course. What I'll do until then is to get to working on that scale. I can use it to warm up or just a few minutes of playing and maybe make some progress without detracting from my Christmas song.

Thanks again. This type of thing is one reason why I made this thread.
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Last edited by WonderMonkey; 12-11-2016 at 11:17 AM.
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  #34  
Old 12-13-2016, 11:28 AM
WonderMonkey WonderMonkey is offline
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Originally Posted by Clallam View Post
I find it frustrating how experienced people trying to teach forget to explain stuff they do on a sub-conscious level. It sure makes it hard for a beginner when some critical fundamental isn't mentioned. I have done a lot of teaching (in an unrelated subject) so I am on the lookout for this. When I suspect missing pieces, I look for other sources to fill in the gaps. This fingering thing is a perfect example. I'll bet Dan hasn't thought about his fingering choices for bass runs in years, he just plays and those drilled in patterns happen automatically. For me, it's a different story.
I will say that the fingering I figured out on my own matches what most people show. There is value to figuring it out on your own and also there is value to being shown and to lessen frustration when most people are somewhat beginners on this topic.
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  #35  
Old 12-13-2016, 03:20 PM
WonderMonkey WonderMonkey is offline
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I'm still on exercise 9, working on the walkups. I'm not sure how "good" I'm supposed to get at the exercise before I move on. I've been thinking that I should move on to exercise 10 and a few others because they are related but then keep coming back to them to keep incrementally improving. One thing I don't want to do is to rush ahead and then find myself unable to even minimally accomplish the lesson because I didn't put in the (fun) work now.
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  #36  
Old 12-13-2016, 11:45 PM
Clallam Clallam is offline
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Originally Posted by WonderMonkey View Post
I will say that the fingering I figured out on my own matches what most people show. There is value to figuring it out on your own and also there is value to being shown and to lessen frustration when most people are somewhat beginners on this topic.
Beginner? Yep, that's me. I'm also teaching myself using books and online resources since I live in a small, isolated community so I don't have an instructor to ask.

In my case, the frustration is more due to not getting the "Why?" It's not my preferred learning mode but if I must I can watch any of dozens of videos online and get which fingers go where. I'm more interested in guidelines I can use to figure out the next one and the ones after that....or alternatively enough examples that I can find the patterns between them.
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  #37  
Old 12-14-2016, 12:35 AM
Clallam Clallam is offline
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Originally Posted by WonderMonkey View Post
I'm still on exercise 9, working on the walkups. I'm not sure how "good" I'm supposed to get at the exercise before I move on. I've been thinking that I should move on to exercise 10 and a few others because they are related but then keep coming back to them to keep incrementally improving. One thing I don't want to do is to rush ahead and then find myself unable to even minimally accomplish the lesson because I didn't put in the (fun) work now.
That's a question I've asked myself too and I'm going to be interested in the answers you get. It sounds like you are starting at a much higher skill level than I am at so you don't have as far to go to get to where you can safely move on.

I think the critical thing for me is going to be getting the right hand automatic enough that I can focus my attention on what my left hand is doing.

I'm spending several minutes working on exercises 1 through 6 every night. I'm working with a metronome on the first five exercises since I have learned that I need both a certain number of repetitions and a certain minimum speed before I can do anything automatically. I still can't play exercise 6 with a metronome without crashing so I foresee a lot more work ahead of me there. My intention is to do those six exercises until I can do them automatically at the speed I would need them at in order to play songs at the correct speed for the song.

I've looked through the rest of Volumes 1 and 2 and think that is the foundation I will need to make the rest easier. Certainly, not having that foundation has made trying to move on to the next exercises difficult. I started to work with exercises 7-9 but I found it rough going. I'm not going to do much more while I get the foundation of the earlier exercises solid.
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  #38  
Old 12-14-2016, 08:28 AM
WonderMonkey WonderMonkey is offline
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Originally Posted by Clallam View Post
Beginner? Yep, that's me. I'm also teaching myself using books and online resources since I live in a small, isolated community so I don't have an instructor to ask.

In my case, the frustration is more due to not getting the "Why?" It's not my preferred learning mode but if I must I can watch any of dozens of videos online and get which fingers go where. I'm more interested in guidelines I can use to figure out the next one and the ones after that....or alternatively enough examples that I can find the patterns between them.
I'm somewhat of a beginner myself. I've been playing 2 months on, 10 months off for years. This hasn't allowed myself to progress much but it did get me comfortable with the very very basics.

I've had a FEW lessons but nothing I would say had any impact on where I am now. I've self-studied some theory on my own in the past and that's probably why during the very brief explanation by Dan I sortof got what was going on, however you connected the rest of the dots on what you found.
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  #39  
Old 12-14-2016, 08:36 AM
WonderMonkey WonderMonkey is offline
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Originally Posted by Clallam View Post
That's a question I've asked myself too and I'm going to be interested in the answers you get. It sounds like you are starting at a much higher skill level than I am at so you don't have as far to go to get to where you can safely move on.
I'm probably a little bit ahead of you as far as skill but if we were both playing consistently I'd say about six months is all. On the things we are learning now my hands fumble a bunch but they recover due to my on and off playing in years past. Even in years past when I did play it was basic cords around a campfire. Since I'm focused on my small Christmas program at work I'm only able to work on these things occasionally. I suspect you will catch up before long.

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Originally Posted by Clallam View Post
I think the critical thing for me is going to be getting the right hand automatic enough that I can focus my attention on what my left hand is doing.
Yes! I either have to stare at my right hand or my left hand to get this right. I try not to do either as that will turn into a bad habit I would think.

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Originally Posted by Clallam View Post
I'm spending several minutes working on exercises 1 through 6 every night. I'm working with a metronome on the first five exercises since I have learned that I need both a certain number of repetitions and a certain minimum speed before I can do anything automatically. I still can't play exercise 6 with a metronome without crashing so I foresee a lot more work ahead of me there. My intention is to do those six exercises until I can do them automatically at the speed I would need them at in order to play songs at the correct speed for the song.
I don't think I'm going to wait until I can do them full speed. I'm going to wait until I pass my "Not thinking about it" test. For me that means I can sit and play something while watching tv and not being uber-focused on what I'm playing. Or looking out the window, or whatever. When I can do that I'm going to move on yet keep coming back and working on them. Additionally, I'm going to get a few songs where I can use the easy version of the skills we are learning and then play those songs. Practice in context is what I'd call this.

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Originally Posted by Clallam View Post
I've looked through the rest of Volumes 1 and 2 and think that is the foundation I will need to make the rest easier. Certainly, not having that foundation has made trying to move on to the next exercises difficult. I started to work with exercises 7-9 but I found it rough going. I'm not going to do much more while I get the foundation of the earlier exercises solid.
I agree. If we don't get this then the rest will be frustrating and time wasted.
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  #40  
Old 12-14-2016, 08:46 AM
WonderMonkey WonderMonkey is offline
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Originally Posted by Clallam View Post
That's a question I've asked myself too and I'm going to be interested in the answers you get. It sounds like you are starting at a much higher skill level than I am at so you don't have as far to go to get to where you can safely move on.
I asked this in another thread.

http://www.acousticguitarforum.com/f...d.php?t=452787
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  #41  
Old 12-14-2016, 10:05 PM
WonderMonkey WonderMonkey is offline
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I've taken the mp3 files and carved out the individual examples so I can loop them and play along over and over. I feel I'm staying within the spirit of what the mp3s are for so hopefully it's ok.

Right now I've got just Example 9 and 10 broken out but I plan on doing the others as I get to them.
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  #42  
Old 12-14-2016, 10:19 PM
WonderMonkey WonderMonkey is offline
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Alright I'm playing cleanly with the recorded version of example 9. If this holds up tomorrow then I'll move onto the homework for example 9, which is to figure out the walkups for the key of C and D. The homework says that later in the book the keys of E and A will be covered as well so maybe I'll figure them out, verify, and practice.

I'm in no hurry to move on as even doing the exercises sounds like "music" to me, and my low standards.
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Last edited by WonderMonkey; 12-14-2016 at 10:25 PM.
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  #43  
Old 12-15-2016, 03:17 AM
Clallam Clallam is offline
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I agree with you and have moved on to exercises 7-9 before reaching my speed goals for exercises 1-6. However, since I'm finding exercises 7-9 more difficult than they need to be due to not being ready, I'm putting more time in on the earlier stuff to build proficiency. It's working and the later exercises are getting easier.

I've also using the skills in exercises 1-6 to play songs. As long as I pick the songs carefully it's starting to sound like music. I'm choosing songs with a minimum number of chord changes since I want the right hand practice without much thought to what my left hand is doing. It's a painless way to get a lot of repetitions in. That's the only way I know to build "muscle memory" and get the hand on automatic.
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  #44  
Old 12-15-2016, 09:43 AM
WonderMonkey WonderMonkey is offline
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Originally Posted by Clallam View Post
I agree with you and have moved on to exercises 7-9 before reaching my speed goals for exercises 1-6. However, since I'm finding exercises 7-9 more difficult than they need to be due to not being ready, I'm putting more time in on the earlier stuff to build proficiency. It's working and the later exercises are getting easier.

I've also using the skills in exercises 1-6 to play songs. As long as I pick the songs carefully it's starting to sound like music. I'm choosing songs with a minimum number of chord changes since I want the right hand practice without much thought to what my left hand is doing. It's a painless way to get a lot of repetitions in. That's the only way I know to build "muscle memory" and get the hand on automatic.
Progress!

I'm honestly just happy I've been able to consistently practice. I've never had this stretch before.

When I figure out the walkups for the other keys I'll post them. I know you will probably want to work them out for yourself but I'd like to share that way someone can say "That doesn't look right..."
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  #45  
Old 12-15-2016, 08:58 PM
Clallam Clallam is offline
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Progress!

I'm honestly just happy I've been able to consistently practice. I've never had this stretch before.

When I figure out the walkups for the other keys I'll post them. I know you will probably want to work them out for yourself but I'd like to share that way someone can say "That doesn't look right..."
You assume correctly, I do want to work them out for myself. I won't learn by reading them.

In case you haven't found them yet, the answers (and a bunch of other info) are posted at http://www.flatpick.com/Flatpicking_...als_s/2015.htm
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