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  #16  
Old 01-11-2017, 11:47 AM
Paultergeist Paultergeist is offline
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Looks very cool. 2K, however, will probably be a deal-breaker for me.
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  #17  
Old 01-11-2017, 01:02 PM
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$2k, Ouch!
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  #18  
Old 01-11-2017, 01:56 PM
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Another advantage of line array systems isn't only their wide horizontal pattern, but also the narrow vertical pattern.

The combination of those attributes are what allow the sound dispersion to fall off more gradually with distance. That's how you can effectively stand in front of your speaker and still have it project around a small/medium sized room without being deafened.

A horn needs to be physically quite large to provide a similar projection, otherwise it has similar properties to a conventional speaker with only a benefit to horizontal coverage.
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  #19  
Old 01-12-2017, 12:35 PM
MikeTX MikeTX is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by martingitdave View Post
.. the JBL product that has more power than the L1 compact at the same price. If I thought the JBL mixer would work for me, I'd sell my gear and buy one of those.
Hi M-Dave - absolutely not trying to argue, BUT - just MY personal experience - I DID buy the JBL Eon One, because of the description, but found it to be VERY under-powered, not "musical sounding" (sorry for lack of a better description), too heavy, and returned to dealer after initial tryout. I did a side-by-side-by-side with my Bose L1 Compact and Bose Classic. The Compact is a LOT louder than the JBL, and much more pleasing to the ear. Of course the big Bose Classic easily led the compare, but the Compact ran amazingly close.

Also, I'm sure you are not fooled by the JBL "6-Channel Mixer" - nice marketing claim, but in the real world - just not so.

I have since bought a second used Compact - I might go for a small herd of em! Seriously I would like to see if my 5-piece rock group could be effective with an All-Compact setup..

Best to ya, MIKE O'
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  #20  
Old 01-12-2017, 12:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MikeTX View Post
Hi M-Dave - absolutely not trying to argue, BUT - just MY personal experience - I DID buy the JBL Eon One, because of the description, but found it to be VERY under-powered, not "musical sounding" (sorry for lack of a better description), too heavy, and returned to dealer after initial tryout. I did a side-by-side-by-side with my Bose L1 Compact and Bose Classic. The Compact is a LOT louder than the JBL, and much more pleasing to the ear. Of course the big Bose Classic easily led the compare, but the Compact ran amazingly close.

Also, I'm sure you are not fooled by the JBL "6-Channel Mixer" - nice marketing claim, but in the real world - just not so.

I have since bought a second used Compact - I might go for a small herd of em! Seriously I would like to see if my 5-piece rock group could be effective with an All-Compact setup..

Best to ya, MIKE O'
Great feedback Mike!
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  #21  
Old 01-12-2017, 03:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cuki79 View Post
Will this amp have the same destiny as the late LR Baggs A-ref?
That was one of the very best amps I've ever sold. Too bad we only sold two, and it eventually left the market.

$1999 MAP—even if you subtract our standard AGF discount—will still be a pretty penny. But 500 watts with great dispersion in a single box will meet the need of quite a few players. Not as many as a Schertler JAM, I suppose, but I have a lot of customers looking for exactly this sort of product. Now for the playtest in one week...
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  #22  
Old 01-13-2017, 08:13 AM
Vancebo Vancebo is offline
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Originally Posted by Shoreline Music View Post
That was one of the very best amps I've ever sold. Too bad we only sold two, and it eventually left the market.
What was the story on those A Ref amps? I was never able to see one in person.

I appreciate Loyd's desire to bring something different or unique to the market.
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  #23  
Old 01-13-2017, 09:20 AM
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Reading through the comments, it occurs to me that a $2,000 investment for a solo amp product would be a tough pill to swallow. I think many musicians would reserve a $2,000 investment for a PA system with many more channels and features. This is especially true given the quality of the options in the $1000 - $1500 price range, on the market today.
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  #24  
Old 01-14-2017, 10:45 AM
jomaynor jomaynor is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vancebo View Post
---snip---
I appreciate Loyd's desire to bring something different or unique to the market.

I appreciate this innovative design, as well.
There are already plenty of $1k column designs out there, so I like it that Mr. Baggs taking his personal PA design in a different direction.

And I don't think that 38 lbs. is an exceptionally heavy amount for an adult to carry, or at least put on a dolly.

Last edited by jomaynor; 01-14-2017 at 12:10 PM.
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  #25  
Old 01-14-2017, 12:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vancebo View Post
What was the story on those A Ref amps? I was never able to see one in person.
The A-ref was based on a distributed mode loudspeaker (DML) also named Balanced Mode Radiator (BMR).

Read
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Distri...de_loudspeaker
and
https://www.cambridgeaudio.com/blog/what-is-bmr


The goal is to get rid of the tweeter.

Having the the tweeter away from the woofer creates phase misalignment when the listener is not in front of the loudspeaker. (That's why AER compact 60 has a twin cone speaker for example)

However a standard loudspeaker needs a tweeter to handle high frequencies. At high frequencies, a loudspeaker quits the "pistonic" mode and starts to support many differrents modes. It's called the loudspeaker break-up
Here is a simulation at 500 Hz from nedlab.com

Then at 1500 Hz

Then at 3000 Hz


All thoses high order modes have resonances at different frequencies so the response of a standard speaker at high frequencies has a lots of peaks. That's why we use crossovers, tweeters, horns...

The DML/BMR idea was to structure the loudspeaker cone to actually select one higher order modes against the others.

Here is the response of a HIBM65C20F DML speaker measured and posted on diyaudio forum


The hole between 1kHz and 2KHz is the transition between the pistonic mode and the "selected" higher order mode (the one pictured in the first image for example). Ok it's not flat, but there is not hundreds of peaks.

To say it simply, the speaker has a flat surface and is "braced" like a guitar top.



On the picture above, you can see a cross-sectionnal view of the speaker. "Balancing masses" are indicated in the middle. They act as the bracing of a guitar top.


So basically the A-ref was an amp with a flat speaker that was braced.

I liked so much the idea that I started to build an A-ref / Phil Jones Bass inspired amp. I wanted to use a DSP to control a dozen modes to mimic the beaming of the guitar top (that has more than two modes of course). So I bought many small DML speakers but did not have the time. So they are still in the basement... This is something I should think of because the IR I made for Doug Young is only stereo but the pedal we use has only the 2nd best Sharc processor. With the Sharc processors you have in the Universal Audio devices or Kemper you could probably address 4-8 ouputs and control as many DMLs. That makes 8-16 addressed modes. That would definitely sound closer to a real acoustic guitar...

I hope it answers the question. I've read people thought the amp was not very powerfull and some have reliability issues... Anyway I think the biggest problem is that it was too expansive. Only two or three companies are allowed to make them because of the patent... So LR Baggs had to import them.

If you like the idea, you can also look for
http://www.jmclutherie.ch/en/soundbo...-made-tonewood
it's basically a braced top with surface exciters.

I am suprised that a company like Taylor did not start to sell an amp like that. With all their CNC abilities, it would take them less than a year to put on production an amp that behaves like a guitar. Well they would only need a guy with some DSP abilities but there are plenty of them on the market today.

Anyway A-ref was really a nice move from LR Baggs... But I've never seen any in Europe, I wish I had.

Cuki
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Last edited by Cuki79; 01-14-2017 at 12:53 PM.
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  #26  
Old 01-14-2017, 02:21 PM
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Cuki, a fascinating read, an education really. Thanks for taking the time!
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  #27  
Old 03-21-2017, 10:47 AM
Jamo241 Jamo241 is offline
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Default AREF resonance

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vancebo View Post
What was the story on those A Ref amps? I was never able to see one in person.

I appreciate Loyd's desire to bring something different or unique to the market.
When I first received my AREF, it developed a resonating vibration when playing a C chord or note that I couldn't notch out. It spent several months at Baggs as they tuned the electronics and added bracing to the interior (I think). A few years later the speaker developed a rattle. It is my understanding that the speaker manufacturers were unable to reliably reproduce the quality of the prototype speaker, and so Baggs stocked up on an inventory of repair parts and discontinued the model.
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  #28  
Old 03-21-2017, 01:30 PM
Vancebo Vancebo is offline
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Good stuff guys. Thank you.
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  #29  
Old 03-21-2017, 03:32 PM
NotValid NotValid is offline
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It seems everyone was interested until the price was mentioned. Me included.
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  #30  
Old 03-21-2017, 03:35 PM
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Quote:
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It seems everyone was interested until the price was mentioned. Me included.


Eh, yup.


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