Trouble doing full F major on upper frets

[Mycroft]

Originally Posted by paulzoom

I didn't say I can't do it. I'm just wondering why it's always harder as I go up the neck (towards the sound hole) as opposed to closer to the headstock.

And all five guitars have had set ups.

HOW it was setup may be the critical question here. Was it set up for hard strumming, or for a light touch?

When you pluch a string, it vibrates in an arc, anchored at the end points. The largest part of the arc is at the midpoint: the 12th fret. So the clearance there needs be greater than at the end points. A harder attack on the strings will create a larger arc which in return will call for a higher string and/or more relief.

Try capoing around the 4th-5th fret, and then do your e-form barre (which is what the first position barred F actually is. A very useful barre chord form.) down where you are saying it is difficult. It it is markedly easier, you may need to revisit the shop.

A thought: has the weather changed much since winter/spring? Seasonal variations can cause a significant change in your relief and action, depending...

Have fun.

TW

[Garrison314]

Just play the first four strings or the bottom three up there....it's too tight for our fat fingers to make it sound right playing all the strings.

[nedray]

I would guess it takes practice. The fretboard is wider as you go up the neck, so the strings hit your barre finger in different spots. Some of those, such as at the joints are hard to hold tight, which can sound real bad when you lift a finger to make the chord minor or 7th, for example.

Heres an exercise: Try starting with a first position E chord and play the major scale in barre chords up the neck as far as you can. Concentrate on clean fingering and memorizing the name of each chord (the root is on the low E). Some will be minor chords, which means lifting the middle finger from the G string and keeping the barre clean. It's a tough exercise if you're not that practiced.

[charles Tauber]

Originally Posted by paulzoom

I actually have small hands. Can't explain it; it's just harder. This is on all five of my guitars so it's not the action because they have had set ups and play easily otherwise.

Well, that narrows it down to two factors: setup, which you state is not the cause, and technique. So, if it isn't an aspect of setup, then it is technique.

[Ed-in-Ohio]

Originally Posted by charles Tauber

The string tension is uniform along the entire length of the string: the string tension does not increase as you get further from the nut. ...snip...

Originally Posted by TBman

There's no increase in string tension at the higher frets, that's complete nonsense. Pull a string up away from the guitar at the 12th fret then try it at the 1st fret. Where can you pull the string higher? It's easier at the 12th. It's also easier to do bends at the higher frets than the first fret. His "action" is too high.

When one creates a barre or applies a capo at a lower fret down the neck, doesn't that artificially shorten the scale, and therefore increase the string tension? I'm pretty sure it does, but if not, I apologize for the bad info.

[charles Tauber]

Originally Posted by Ed-in-Ohio

When one creates a barre or applies a capo at a lower fret down the neck, doesn't that artificially shorten the scale, and therefor increase the string tension? I'm pretty sure it does, but if not, I apologize for the bad info.

1. The "scale length" is a theoretical vibrating string length that is used to mathematically calculate the positions of the frets. It is fixed by the designer/manufacturer of the instrument. It is the theoretical length from nut to saddle.

2. The pitch (frequency) of a vibrating string is related to its length, its tension and its mass. If one "stops" a vibrating string - either by depressing it against a fixed object, such as a fret, or by depressing it against a fingerboard, such as is done in violin family instruments - one divides the string into segments shorter than the original un-stopped string. Shortening the vibrating ("sounding") portion of the string increasing its pitch. In theory, doing so does not alter the tension on the string (or its mass).

3. In practice, deforming a string to depress it against a fret (or fingerboard) stretches the string by a small amount. Since the shortest distance between two points is a straight line, deforming the string so that it is not a straight line stretches a string, slightly increasing its tension. As the tension increases slightly, the pitch the fretted (stopped) note makes also increases slightly. The change in tension is very small compared to the total tension on the undeformed string.

In summary, fretting a note on a guitar does not appreciably change the tension on the strings, nor does it change the "scale" of the instrument.

[robj144]

Originally Posted by Ed-in-Ohio

Not just you. Barre chords get harder as you get further away from the nut because of the increased tension and higher action. Lower action (should be no higher than 6/64" under the low-E at fret 12 (5/64" even better]) at the saddle and lower tension strings will help.

The tension is the same everywhere on the fretboard.

[robj144]

That's odd, because to me, it's much easier than near the nut. The frets get closer for one thing and near the middle of the guitar the action is easier as you don't have to fight against the nut.

[Ed-in-Ohio]

Originally Posted by Ed-in-Ohio

Not just you. Barre chords get harder as you get further away from the nut because of the higher action. Lower action (should be no higher than 6/64" under the low-E at fret 12 (5/64" even better]) at the saddle, and lighter gauge strings will help.

Thanks to those who pointed out the bad information in my post. I have removed it from my OP. Thanks again.

[TBman]

Originally Posted by Ed-in-Ohio

Thanks to those who pointed out the bad information in my post. I have removed it from my OP. Thanks again.

Big nod of respect to you Ed.

[DukeX]

Originally Posted by paulzoom

I seem like on all my guitars I have a harder time doing an F Major (or whatever it's called when you do it farther up the neck)...

It's usually called an E shape or E form barre chord.

[tippy5]

Acoustics have fatter, higher tension strings than electrics.
Barre chords need a little more muscle up by the body neck joint.

Now you could get a super low string height setup with little relief and play quietly.
..... No more raucous right hand strumming. ..... A loss of tone, as well.

The more you play the easier you can muscle clean chords, anywhere.

[musicman1951]

My first reaction is that this is one of the crazier things I've read - I much prefer to play it on the 8th fret. But we're all different. I once broke my left wrist in three places and rather hate that chord on the first fret.

On the 8th fret your left arm is much straighter, which would (I imagine) make it easier to apply the proper pressure.

OK, the frets get closer together, but that shouldn't be a problem unless you have not practiced the chords up the neck. Since that fix is too obvious to suggest, I'm guessing the guitar needs a set-up.

[TBman]

This book is excellent for learning movable barre chords. It isn't the CAGED system, just a book of "this is the chord, do this with it" exercises which give you practice on the transitions between the chords. Barre chords are best practiced with a flat pick played with prejudice to show up any buzzes from undeveloped technique. I should take my own advice and go back to using this once a week. This is the book I had when I took lessons over 40 years ago and its sitting over here on my bookshelf.

[rick-slo]

Barres way up the neck can be more difficult even on a well set up guitar.

For one thing, since the frets are closer together there is less room to position the index finger exactly as you might want to, and less room for the other fingers (for example a pretty cramped A chord shaped barre).

Also, since the frets are closer together, in order to be able to press hard enough on the fret you want to barre you are also having to press the strings down on the fret behind the index finger more firmly than you would if the frets were further apart (a bit of a double whammy).