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  #16  
Old 06-14-2017, 08:45 AM
JonPR JonPR is offline
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Originally Posted by SunnyDee View Post
Since we're talking about the differences in scales and key - Just to clarify for the OP, if "A minor" had G# and F#, that would be a different scale with different intervals.
Yes in theory, but not really in practice. The "minor key" employs a scale with variable 6th and 7th degrees. A piece in the "key of A minor" can use F and/or F#, and G and/or G#, at different times, for various reasons.

It doesn't really help to see it as three different scales (even though a lot of books insist on describing it like that). In western practice, harmonic and melodic minor are not really "scales", they are "practices" of altering natural minor in specific ways, for "harmonic" or "melodic" purposes.

In some folk cultures, harmonic minor (or something very like it) does exist as a scale in is own right. But in the main western traditions (classical, pop, jazz, etc), you don't see music written in harmonic or melodic minor. They're always just temporary alterations within tunes that are otherwise based on natural minor.
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  #17  
Old 06-14-2017, 08:48 AM
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In my theory i practice the keys coming from the C Major scale only neglecting the other keys of the circle of fifths (The # and b keys ) .Am i doing wrong for guitar and should i revise the other keys also .I am assuming those other keys are for instruments other than guitar (mostly ) and in my musical life i am never likely to play in a sharp or flat key .
At this time are you practicing and learning to from start to finish actual tunes or songs? Find tunes or songs that you like and go at it. That is where I would be spending most of my time.
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  #18  
Old 06-14-2017, 08:51 AM
SunnyDee SunnyDee is offline
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It doesn't really help to see it as three different scales (even though a lot of books insist on describing it like that). In western practice, harmonic and melodic minor are not really "scales", they are "practices" of altering natural minor in specific ways, for "harmonic" or "melodic" purposes.
I can see why you would say that, but in this case, the OP does not seem to realize that the scale is produced with one pattern of intervals or what is shown on the Circle of 5ths and these are core concepts. The pattern for the melodic minor is different and is not shown in the Circle of 5ths. That is the point to be made, so, as a recent beginner, I think it helps quite a lot to see this difference.

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The "circle of 5ths" is a system for producing (or organising) the other major scales, by adding sharps or flats (altering one or more of the natural notes). So, changing the F note for F# produces the set of notes most often called "the G major scale"....
I know you have really advanced knowledge of theory, but, imo, this terminology can confuse beginners (having recently been one) because the Circle is not showing "other major scales." In this context, there is just one major scale, the Ionian, with an interval pattern of TTSTTTS. All the keys on the Circle are using those intervals. And, it can be confusing to talk about "changing" or altering notes (because we usually use that way of speaking about creating new scales - like blues scales or modes, etc). Here, we are not really "changing" notes, we are using one pattern of intervals, but starting on different notes so that new notes fall into the same pattern.
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  #19  
Old 06-14-2017, 08:57 AM
mr. beaumont mr. beaumont is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JonPR View Post

It doesn't really help to see it as three different scales (even though a lot of books insist on describing it like that). In western practice, harmonic and melodic minor are not really "scales", they are "practices" of altering natural minor in specific ways, for "harmonic" or "melodic" purposes..
For improvising, it sure makes a difference.

Not all music bows to "classical" theory.
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  #20  
Old 06-14-2017, 09:23 AM
Ze. Ze. is offline
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Practice them all. No shortcuts.
Yes i was looking for a short cut to practising them all ...i was thinking because there are only 7 modes that i could get away with just practising the Keys off the C Major scale .

Thankyou
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  #21  
Old 06-14-2017, 03:30 PM
FwL FwL is offline
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Originally Posted by Ze. View Post
Yes i was looking for a short cut to practising them all ...i was thinking because there are only 7 modes that i could get away with just practising the Keys off the C Major scale .

Thankyou

You're mixing up scales keys and modes. The first order of business would be to get your terms sraight so you can ask questions with better clarity.
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  #22  
Old 06-15-2017, 07:24 AM
LSemmens LSemmens is offline
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I think Ze. is confused. Think of the neck of the guitar you have a number of strings (usually six) all tuned to a note (Typically EADGBE) Each fret raises the note by one half tone or Semitone, so the first fret on each string would then play (F, A# or Bb, D# or Eb, G# or Ab, C, F) And so on through the chromatic scale until you reach the 12th fret where the original notes will sound again, albeit an octave higher. One string played produces 1 note. When you play one or more strings together you play a chord. A scale is just the order in which you play the notes. On a guitar, any major scale can be played using the same "order" or pattern. Root note (starting on the open string), 2nd (two frets up), 3rd (4 frets up), 4th (5 frets up), 5th (7 Frets up), 6th (9 frets), 7th (11 frets), Octave (12 frets up).

Depending upon the root note, in the scale will depend upon whether there are sharps and flats in the scale. Different types of scales (minor, myxolodian, phyrgian etc.) use different patterns.

When you talk about the key signature of a song, you are talking about the root note of that scale. The circle of fifths is a simple manner used to determine which chords are appropriate for a particular key.

Of course this is fairly simplified, but, learning scales, and chords are two different exercises even though they are inextricably linked and learning one without the other will only lead to confusion.
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  #23  
Old 06-15-2017, 08:29 AM
mr. beaumont mr. beaumont is offline
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Here, let's just end the confusion. Or try to

Here are the major scales: First note is the tonic (So if it starts with C, it's C major)

C D E F G A B (no sharps or flats)

G A B C D E F#
D E F# G A B C#
A B C# D E F# G#
E F#G#A B C# D#
B C#D#E F#G#A#
F#G#A#BC#D#E#

Db Eb F Gb Ab Bb C
Ab Bb C Db Eb F G
Eb F G Ab Bb C D
Bb C D E B F G
F G A Bb C D E

Keep in mind, there are "enharmonics," meaning same pitch but different name, but I've left them out for now for the sake of ease of reading. But bear in mind, there is such a thing as C# major, but C# and Db are the same notes (same with F# and Gb, and so on)

But this covers them all, moving in fifths (which is a good way to practice things anyway.

What to notice? Each letter of the musical alphabet appears only once in each major scale (it might be sharp or flat, but the letters are always used just once) So it's a good idea to memorize the order of sharps and flats...

Don't even worry about modes until you have these down cold. See you in 3 months, 2 if you work hard.
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  #24  
Old 06-15-2017, 09:57 AM
JonPR JonPR is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mr. beaumont View Post
For improvising, it sure makes a difference.

Not all music bows to "classical" theory.
Sure! I was only talking about composing in minor keys - in all kinds of western music of which I'm aware. (I know a lot more about pop, rock, jazz and blues than I do about classical music.)

But even in jazz improvisation I never found much use for harmonic or melodic minor .... ...

OK, some, but not much.
I mean, I'm aware of all the "melodic minor mode" concepts, but - aside from melodic minor on a tonic minor, the rest is coincidental associations. The altered and lydian dominant scales, eg, are nothing really to do with melodic minor. The resemblance is no doubt useful for some, but it's musically meaningless.
Harmonic minor - maybe sometimes (more than Mark Levine allows anyhow ) but still not much.

I realise this may be a minority view. Just my $0.02.
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  #25  
Old 06-15-2017, 10:06 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ze. View Post
Yes i was looking for a short cut to practising them all ...i was thinking because there are only 7 modes that i could get away with just practising the Keys off the C Major scale .

Thankyou
I agree with Jeff - forget modes, practice major scales. That means all patterns, all the way up the neck, for each scale. (You can give each pattern a mode name if you want, but actually - no, don't do that!)

As I said before, start with the scales for the common guitar keys (copied and pasted from Jeff's post):

C D E F G A B
G A B C D E F#
D E F# G A B C#
A B C# D E F# G#
E F# G# A B C# D#

You may find the CAGED system of chord shapes helps (5 overlapping shapes for every major chord). In fact, my personal recommendation is to learn chord shapes thoroughly before even tackling scales. Chords help scales make sense.
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  #26  
Old 06-15-2017, 10:24 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ze. View Post
....I am assuming those other keys are for instruments other than guitar (mostly ) and in my musical life i am never likely to play in a sharp or flat key .
Do yourself a kindness, and throw away this assumption and expectation of what guitars and music can bring to your life.

Learn the names of the notes and where they are on the fretboard of your guitar. ( at least do this for three keys that allow you to play a song. C, F, & G or G, C & D)
Learn the names of the notes that go in each scale. (see previous posts with this info )
Practice finding and playing the notes in each scale, at every place on the neck where it is possible to do so. (you'll discover a few repeating patterns that get used over and over)

best of luck!
keep us posted on your progress - we're a great bunch of enablers here!
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  #27  
Old 06-15-2017, 11:08 AM
stanron stanron is offline
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Code:
 │ │ │ │ │ │
 ├─┼─┼─┼─┼─┤
 │ 3 6 2 │ 7
 ├─┼─┼─┼─┼─┤
 R 4 │ │ 5 R
 ├─┼─┼─┼─┼─┤
 │ │ 7 3 │ │
 ├─┼─┼─┼─┼─┤
 2 5 R 4 6 │
 ├─┼─┼─┼─┼─┤
 │ │ │ │ │ │
R = root

Here is a pattern of notes that is a major scale. It is in the key of wherever the 6th string root is. If the root is on the 6th string fifth fret, the key is A major. At the third fret it is the key of G. At the fourth fret you can call it either A flat or G#. When playing scales it can be either.

There are other ways of playing a major scale with the root on the 6th string, but the same rules apply.

You'll notice that the root is also on the fourth and first string. There are different patterns that have the root on the 5th, 3rd and 2nd strings but again you just change the position of the pattern for different keys. Knowing the names of notes on the fretboard helps.
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  #28  
Old 06-15-2017, 11:40 AM
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Tip:

With ascending major scales start the root note with the second (middle) finger.

For minor scales start the root note with the first (index) finger.
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  #29  
Old 06-15-2017, 02:27 PM
paulp1960 paulp1960 is offline
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As others have said just learn the major scale for now. All other scales can be considered modifications of a major scale.

Also learn to play songs. Listen to melodies. Music is not made up of scales.
Melodies, harmonies and rhythm make up music.

Unless you only ever play in the key of C you will at some point be playing in keys with sharps or flats. D, A, G, E are popular keys on the guitar.
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  #30  
Old 06-15-2017, 02:55 PM
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The diatonic scales of different keys are really quite a simple thing. You can hear them clearly in your head. Key to key
the major scale intervals stay the same, ditto for the minor keys. Memorize a few patterns, and get up some reasonable
technical speed playing them. You're done. Use your ears, alter scales with accidentals (melody line, possible tension and
release episodes) and your're done again at a higher level.
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