More or less than 1.00 thick?

[N+1]

Originally Posted by Mick's Goat Whiskey Picks

Trust me on this one. It'll take a little bit of adapting. Your hand will learn to control the tone by the way you hold the pick and also your ear will adapt to what it's hearing too. With the thin picks you really haven't been able to hear the full potential of your guitar. What you're describing as dark is most likely full and rich like your guitar is supposed to sound.

After our discussion I spent a while trying yet again a Dunlop Ultex 1mm pick, (I know that's not what you recommended, but it's still a respectable item) and alternating it with a 0.5mm Dunlop tortex. I'm not as optimistic as you are about the outcome of the primetone experiment - bear in mind that I've been playing guitar for nearly 50 years, trying all sorts of picks during that time, and always returning to thinner ones. Here are some thoughts that arose yesterday evening while I was noodling (on a Taylor 810e):

1. I don't feel as if I have more control with the thick pick. I feel as if I have less. In fact I think I can coax considerably more detail out of the strings with the thin pick. I think you'll say that will change if I persevere, and of course you may be right.

2. With the thick pick there's a clunkiness to the sound of the bass strings that I don't like. It feels awkward (which of course may change with time), but more importantly, it sounds worse to my ears. Hard and unyielding, rather than rich and blooming.

3. Again with the thick pick, the luscious chime and shimmer of the treble (which made me fall in love with the 810 in the first place) almost disappears. 'Chime' becomes 'plonk'. (I'm exaggerating here, in my attempt to express the character of the sound.)

4. Now this brings me to my main point. I bought this 810e because it sounded and felt wonderful, when played with a 5mm Dunlop tortex pick. If I'd been playing it with a 1mm Ultex pick, I'd have liked neither the sound nor the feel of it, and actually, I simply wouldn't have bought it.

As far as I can see, the chief price I pay for using the thin pick is increased pick noise. In fact that's the main reason why I expressed interest in thicker picks in the first place. But it seems to be horses for courses. A thick pick reduces pick noise, but darkens the tone and sounds plonky. A thin pick brings out the shimmer and sparkle at the expense of greater pick noise. I can't see a right or a wrong in all this - it's a matter of choice about which parts of the audio spectrum one wants to hear, and about one's tolerance for pick noise. The most crucial thing, for me, is retaining my love affair with my instrument.

However, I have paid my money, and some Dunlop primetones are winging their way towards me as I write this. Revelation may be just one postal delivery away! And even if it turns out not to be, this discussion is making me think more carefully about the whole process of choosing and using picks. Thanks for your persistence!

[Goat Mick]

My '94 710 sounds just amazing with a 1mm Primetone. You may be so programmed into thinking a thin pick is the only way to go that you'll never be able to hear the positive attributes of a thicker pick. Luckily the Primetones and Charmed Life and some others come in thinner models that you can still enjoy a premium pick in a thinner model. Gotta admire your willingness to try. Just like everything in guitar playing, improvement is never immediate or easy.

[N+1]

Originally Posted by Mick's Goat Whiskey Picks

My '94 710 sounds just amazing with a 1mm Primetone.

I don't need persuading of that. I'm sure that with you playing, it does.

You may be so programmed into thinking a thin pick is the only way to go that you'll never be able to hear the positive attributes of a thicker pick.

Or maybe I do hear them, but don't like them? That might be programming, or (as I'm inclined to suppose, because this goes back a very long way) it might just be a personal preference thing.

Luckily the Primetones and Charmed Life and some others come in thinner models that you can still enjoy a premium pick in a thinner model.

That's an interesting thought, which opens another avenue. Thank you.

[Shadowfox]

Originally Posted by Mick's Goat Whiskey Picks

Can't figure out how to post a poll so I'm just going to ask. Really simple do you prefer picks less than 1.0mm thick or do you like them thicker?

After a lot of requests I've added a line of thumbpicks and flatpicks that are less than 1.0mm so I'm wondering how many of our folks prefer picks less than 1.0mm vs how many like them thicker than 1.0mm.

1. Less than 1.0 thickness
2. More than 1.0 thickness

As a strummer, I've found my go to depends on the tone I want. I like the Tortex .88, but really lately have been loving the Ultex Sharp .90 and .73! Check them out if you havn't.

[drtedtan]

If you're happy with thin picks, it may be what you end up sticking with, especially if you are mainly strumming. But if you are interested in trying out thicker picks, you really do need to give yourself time to adjust to them as you'll need to learn how to hold them lighter than you do your thin picks, but still maintain a grip on the pick. I'd say give it at least a week or two, minimum, before writing them off, as it can take that long to adjust.

Originally Posted by N+1

1. I don't feel as if I have more control with the thick pick. I feel as if I have less. In fact I think I can coax considerably more detail out of the strings with the thin pick. I think you'll say that will change if I persevere, and of course you may be right.

You won't have more control right away, it will take a couple of weeks to adjust. So you are correct - at this point, you do have less control with the thicker pick.

Originally Posted by N+1

2. With the thick pick there's a clunkiness to the sound of the bass strings that I don't like. It feels awkward (which of course may change with time), but more importantly, it sounds worse to my ears. Hard and unyielding, rather than rich and blooming.

3. Again with the thick pick, the luscious chime and shimmer of the treble (which made me fall in love with the 810 in the first place) almost disappears. 'Chime' becomes 'plonk'. (I'm exaggerating here, in my attempt to express the character of the sound.)

If you are looking for a brighter, "clunk-free" sound form a thicker pick, you'll probably find that you need to angle it a bit so that you hit the strings with the leading edge of the pick rather than the full face of the pick. This is especially important when flat picking or playing fast single note lines, but it comes into play when strumming, too.

And, of course, hold the picker lighter.

Originally Posted by N+1

4. Now this brings me to my main point. I bought this 810e because it sounded and felt wonderful, when played with a 5mm Dunlop tortex pick. If I'd been playing it with a 1mm Ultex pick, I'd have liked neither the sound nor the feel of it, and actually, I simply wouldn't have bought it.

I find that having different picks (different materials, different thicknesses and different tip shapes) helps bring out a number of different timbers from any guitar. As noted earlier in the thread, I mainly play picks between 1.2 and 1.5mm, but I still have other picks, too. You needn't be monogamous with picks - go with whichever suits the song.

Originally Posted by N+1

As far as I can see, the chief price I pay for using the thin pick is increased pick noise.

In addition to increased pick noise, you are also giving up control. You haven't spent the time with the thicker picks to adapt to them, but if you put in the effort, you'll notice this, too. You may still prefer thinner picks, but you'll have a better idea of the tradeoffs between thicker and thinner picks.

[Frogstar]

Originally Posted by N+1

I don't need persuading of that. I'm sure that with you playing, it does.



Or maybe I do hear them, but don't like them? That might be programming, or (as I'm inclined to suppose, because this goes back a very long way) it might just be a personal preference thing.


That's an interesting thought, which opens another avenue. Thank you.

For what it's worth, I like my 2mm Dunlop Delrin pick on most of my guitars--but on my Taylor, I find it too bright (and at the time I discovered this, I had my two primary six strings both strung with the same kind of strings, Elixir HD Lights). These picks seem fairly easy to locate at local stores, and priced about the same as other garden variety picks. Not suggesting you dive all the way into 2mm of course, just that this material may be worth a go (it's available all the way down to 0.46mm, and options in between).

And as far as Charmed Life, it does sound like you may be a candidate for their brown picks (I have both the brown & natural series).

[Vol46]

I use several different picks depending on the guitar and the sound I am after. The usual choices are .88 mm Dunlop sculpted primetone, Charmed Life .9 mm Brown, & 1.4 mm Dunlop Primetone triangle. I also like the Wegen bluegrass 1.4, & the Dunlop Ultex 1.14 triangle for a warmer tone.
Last but not least, I have an old, cheap all laminate guitar that sits out on a stand in my den for for grabbing & playing when the mood strikes or when I play accompaniment for something on TV. That guitar needs brightened up quite a bit, & a Jim Dunlop 1.5mm Stubby Triangle & 80/20 GHH bright bronze strings seem to be the right combination.

[tippy5]

I like 4 picks.
Most any old medium, sometimes lighter, for Taylor strumming chime. Especially if the tune has fast tempo. Great to record with way down in the mix.

The best buy (and less worrisome about loss or gifting to fellow guitarists) are the picks I keep on all 3 tables around the house Primetone's. With their raised grip writing, Dunlop .73 and 1.3 for the price can't be beat. Less pick noise and the raised grip is awesome.

For my electrics and fast Gibson acoustic hybrid playing I enjoy Scott's .73 CL brown. Super quiet and accurate. I only wish that it would have some raised bumps like the Dunlop.
I also love his 1.0. Used for dramatic playing. Love the release off the string. Very slippery and ready for the next note. Incredible quality feel.
Both of these fine Charmed Life pics I put away and only pull out when necessary. Use them very often. Although in hindsight I wished that I ordered his new 1.0 with one of the 3 beveled points rounded off.

My favorite thick pick for warm, little pick noise is the Blue Chip TADIR-50.
I try to use the rounded edge if the song isn't too fast. What tone!
Sounds almost like finger tip warmth. This pick will also make a cheap guitar sound like it is worth twice the price.

[Dotneck]

I like about 1.25 mm. Depends on the material though.

[mattwood]

1 mm. or thereabouts

[Bowie]

Originally Posted by N+1

Or maybe I do hear them, but don't like them? That might be programming, or (as I'm inclined to suppose, because this goes back a very long way) it might just be a personal preference thing.

You're absolutely right. Music is about your personal tastes. I've worked with enough amazing session players to know that pick choice varies wildly and it always surprises me how many great players use thin picks. Great players also use all sort of different strings, styles, even wildly different sounding guitars.

Whatever sounds right to you, IS right. It may change over the years too so always experiment.

[Cap'n Spanky]

I grew up on Fender mediums, which are somewhere around 0.7. I have a hard time getting used to anything else.

[numb fingertips]

Unless my tastes change when I actually learn to play, .60MM

[N+1]

My thanks to Mick (Goat Whiskey), drtedtan, Frogstar, Bowie, and others for helpful comments.

My 1mm primetones arrived this morning. I played my 810 with the 1mm primetone, a 1mm Ultex large triangle, and a 0.5mm tortex large triangle, changing from one to another, in different sequences, and playing in different ways (while remembering the hints about not gripping the thicker picks too tightly). At the end of this experiment (and I appreciate this is an immediate response, and things may change), I found that:

1. The primetone really does feel better than I expected, so Goat Whiskey Mick's advice is spot on. Much better than the ultex (though I miss the large triangular shape). Neither felt as comfortable as the 0.5mm, but I expected that, at this stage.

2. I do feel I have better control with the primetone than with the ultex triangle. But I feel I have far more control with the 0.5mm than with either of the others (again, this is as expected at this stage).

3. There is very little pick noise with the primetone (again, as expected).

Both 1 and 2 will I'm sure change with practice. But then comes the cruncher:

4. When I play with the ultex or the primetone, I don't like the sound of my guitar. I like the primetone better (or rather, I dislike it less), but where has the shimmering glistening chiming treble of this beautiful guitar gone? Yes, there is more pick noise with the 0.5mm tortex, and truly I don't like that and would love to remove it. But setting pick noise aside, I feel that the whole tone of the instrument suffers a quantum slump towards clunkiness, with both of the 1mm picks. I would never have paid nearly £3,000 for a guitar that sounds like this.

This is all very baffling, but I can think of a possible (partial) explanation: age and ears. I know the top end of my hearing response is considerably reduced compared with what it was, say, 10 years ago. I am wondering if the brightness of the 5mm pick is compensating for that in some degree. In other words, when I listen to my 810 played with the thinner pick, am I hearing a more balanced response across the audio spectrum than you guys would, with your better ears? I don't think this is the only answer, because my dislike of the sound of the thicker picks isn't only about perceived limitations of the audio spectrum, but it might go at least halfway towards explaining it.

[Goat Mick]

Originally Posted by N+1

My thanks to Mick (Goat Whiskey), drtedtan, Frogstar, Bowie, and others for helpful comments.

My 1mm primetones arrived this morning. I played my 810 with the 1mm primetone, a 1mm Ultex large triangle, and a 0.5mm tortex large triangle, changing from one to another, in different sequences, and playing in different ways (while remembering the hints about not gripping the thicker picks too tightly). At the end of this experiment (and I appreciate this is an immediate response, and things may change), I found that:

1. The primetone really does feel better than I expected, so Goat Whiskey Mick's advice is spot on. Much better than the ultex (though I miss the large triangular shape). Neither felt as comfortable as the 0.5mm, but I expected that, at this stage.

2. I do feel I have better control with the primetone than with the ultex triangle. But I feel I have far more control with the 0.5mm than with either of the others (again, this is as expected at this stage).

3. There is very little pick noise with the primetone (again, as expected).

Both 1 and 2 will I'm sure change with practice. But then comes the cruncher:

4. When I play with the ultex or the primetone, I don't like the sound of my guitar. I like the primetone better (or rather, I dislike it less), but where has the shimmering glistening chiming treble of this beautiful guitar gone? Yes, there is more pick noise with the 0.5mm tortex, and truly I don't like that and would love to remove it. But setting pick noise aside, I feel that the whole tone of the instrument suffers a quantum slump towards clunkiness, with both of the 1mm picks. I would never have paid nearly £3,000 for a guitar that sounds like this.

This is all very baffling, but I can think of a possible (partial) explanation: age and ears. I know the top end of my hearing response is considerably reduced compared with what it was, say, 10 years ago. I am wondering if the brightness of the 5mm pick is compensating for that in some degree. In other words, when I listen to my 810 played with the thinner pick, am I hearing a more balanced response across the audio spectrum than you guys would, with your better ears? I don't think this is the only answer, because my dislike of the sound of the thicker picks isn't only about perceived limitations of the audio spectrum, but it might go at least halfway towards explaining it.

Sounds like it's time for a second set of ears. Get a buddy (with good hearing) to listen to you play a piece with your 0.5mm pick and then the same piece with the Primetone. See which one they think sounds better with the guitar.