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  #16  
Old 06-18-2017, 08:31 AM
AndyC AndyC is offline
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Originally Posted by rb1591 View Post
I use the Soloist far more than the K&K ... just suits my playing style and ears more. I have tried the combination a couple of times at home and also at a gig, treating the k&k pretty much as second source. In both cases, I didn't like the results ... these two did not compliment each other in my rather quick experiments. Don't know if this has to do with design of Soloist or sonic characteristics of each. Since I really didn't hear anything worth pursuing, I haven't worked with it any further.

Like everyone else on this forum, I'm always looking for ways to improve my live sound ... and often frustrated. On the other hand, it's a fun hobby. However, I often come back to this: what works well in my music room at home is not necessarily what works well on stage. In other words, "my guitar but louder" seems like a great idea, but in real life gig situations ... that may be a different thing altogether. BTW, Gary, the closest to the ideal that I have heard is the YouTube video with Cormac McCarthy (songwriter, not author) using a custom Aura image with the original AST AUra Blender.

All that to say, I'd love to hear from those who are using the TD in real world gig situations. How's it working on the job, folks?
Do you have a link to the Cormac McCarthy video pls?
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  #17  
Old 06-18-2017, 08:32 AM
jonfields45 jonfields45 is offline
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Originally Posted by rb1591 View Post
I use the Soloist far more than the K&K ... just suits my playing style and ears more. I have tried the combination a couple of times at home and also at a gig, treating the k&k pretty much as second source. In both cases, I didn't like the results ... these two did not compliment each other in my rather quick experiments. Don't know if this has to do with design of Soloist or sonic characteristics of each. Since I really didn't hear anything worth pursuing, I haven't worked with it any further.
Is it possible that no second source will work well with the Soloist because alternate strings are out of phase and you therefore can't properly phase a second source for all the strings?
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  #18  
Old 06-18-2017, 11:53 AM
rb1591 rb1591 is offline
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Default Cormac McCarthy

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Originally Posted by AndyC View Post
Do you have a link to the Cormac McCarthy video pls?
Click here.

Or here.

Gary, jump in. Am I not correct about CM's custom image for his Aura?

Last edited by rb1591; 06-18-2017 at 12:01 PM.
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  #19  
Old 06-18-2017, 11:57 AM
rb1591 rb1591 is offline
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Originally Posted by jonfields45 View Post
Is it possible that no second source will work well with the Soloist because alternate strings are out of phase and you therefore can't properly phase a second source for all the strings?
Certainly possible, although Baggs LB6 also has out of phase strings and was often paired with an internal mic in early dual source systems. Phil Keaggy still uses that system. Wish Baggs still made that available. Of course, combining with mic may be technically different than with an SBT … technically above my pay grade.
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  #20  
Old 06-18-2017, 12:13 PM
guitaniac guitaniac is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rb1591 View Post
Click here.

Or here.

Gary, jump in. Am I not correct about CM's custom image for his Aura?
Yep, Cormac has custom sound images and the original Aura processor. He was (and probably still is) a good friend of Harvey Reid, one of the original Aura beta testers.

Last edited by guitaniac; 06-18-2017 at 12:22 PM.
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  #21  
Old 06-18-2017, 12:21 PM
guitaniac guitaniac is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rb1591 View Post
I use the Soloist far more than the K&K ... just suits my playing style and ears more. I have tried the combination a couple of times at home and also at a gig, treating the k&k pretty much as second source. In both cases, I didn't like the results ... these two did not compliment each other in my rather quick experiments. Don't know if this has to do with design of Soloist or sonic characteristics of each. Since I really didn't hear anything worth pursuing, I haven't worked with it any further.

Like everyone else on this forum, I'm always looking for ways to improve my live sound ... and often frustrated. On the other hand, it's a fun hobby. However, I often come back to this: what works well in my music room at home is not necessarily what works well on stage. In other words, "my guitar but louder" seems like a great idea, but in real life gig situations ... that may be a different thing altogether. BTW, Gary, the closest to the ideal that I have heard is the YouTube video with Cormac McCarthy (songwriter, not author) using a custom Aura image with the original AST AUra Blender.

All that to say, I'd love to hear from those who are using the TD in real world gig situations. How's it working on the job, folks?
Thanks for the observations on trying to blend the Soloist and Pure Mini. I was suspecting that might not work too well.

The reason I like the two pickup setup (Soloist and Pure Mini) is that you can use the Pure Mini w/ToneDexter for moderate volume levels and the Soloist with ToneDexter for the louder situations. Then again, you may end up liking the Soloist/TD combo best for everything.

Last edited by guitaniac; 06-18-2017 at 01:03 PM.
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  #22  
Old 06-18-2017, 12:40 PM
guitaniac guitaniac is offline
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Originally Posted by rb1591 View Post
Click here.

Or here.

Gary, jump in. Am I not correct about CM's custom image for his Aura?
I should add the Cormac was also using a delay pedal on some of the slower stuff on that night at the Barking Spider.
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  #23  
Old 06-19-2017, 12:23 PM
DSP Andy DSP Andy is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rb1591 View Post
Andy, what do you mean by "low distortion?" Are you referring to a quality of the pickup and/or preamp itself or the input level on the ToneDexter. Obviously the K&K sbt would be included in you choices, but can you give some other examples of pickups capable of good string to string balance, low distortion and with which you have had good success.
Hi. I should have elaborated on distortion, thanks for asking. The specific distortion mechanism I'm referring to here is non-linear distortion. In a linear system, given input signal x, the output signal y = a * x, where a is a constant.
This means that no new frequencies are created by the process. Non-linear distortion creates artifacts that would in general not be present in the input signal or the microphone signal. The ToneDexter training algorithm works best when these artifacts are at a minimum, say less than 10% or so. This is well within the capability of any reasonable piezo pickup, but outside the range of many magnetic pickups.

This needs to be distinguished from a change in the relative amplitude or phase of the input frequencies. This type of distortion (lets call it frequency distortion) is no problem for the TD training scheme.

String-to-string balance is important because TD does not concern itself with which string generated which tones, and most fundamental tones on a stringed instrument can be produced multiple ways.

The best string balance I have observed is from the 6 element pickup systems, such as RMC or Barbera. But garden variety UST devices such as Fishman Matrix) when installed properly, are generally fine. There are lots of discussions on this topic such as:
http://www.acousticguitarforum.com/f...d.php?t=210212

or

http://www.harmonycentral.com/forum/...la-42/1332619-

Bottom line is that balance is an installation issue.
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  #24  
Old 06-19-2017, 01:09 PM
rb1591 rb1591 is offline
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Originally Posted by DSP Andy View Post
Hi. I should have elaborated on distortion, thanks for asking. The specific distortion mechanism I'm referring to here is non-linear distortion. In a linear system, given input signal x, the output signal y = a * x, where a is a constant.
This means that no new frequencies are created by the process. Non-linear distortion creates artifacts that would in general not be present in the input signal or the microphone signal. The ToneDexter training algorithm works best when these artifacts are at a minimum, say less than 10% or so. This is well within the capability of any reasonable piezo pickup, but outside the range of many magnetic pickups.

This needs to be distinguished from a change in the relative amplitude or phase of the input frequencies. This type of distortion (lets call it frequency distortion) is no problem for the TD training scheme.

String-to-string balance is important because TD does not concern itself with which string generated which tones, and most fundamental tones on a stringed instrument can be produced multiple ways.

The best string balance I have observed is from the 6 element pickup systems, such as RMC or Barbera. But garden variety UST devices such as Fishman Matrix) when installed properly, are generally fine. There are lots of discussions on this topic such as:
http://www.acousticguitarforum.com/f...d.php?t=210212

or

http://www.harmonycentral.com/forum/...la-42/1332619-

Bottom line is that balance is an installation issue.
Thanks, Andy, for clarifying that.

For the sake of discussion, I would add that from my perspective as a player, string balance is critical, but for a different reason. Good string to string response determines tactile connection between my fingers (or pick) and the sound I hear from my guitar. It's an issue of touch. That may not make sense to some folks, but for me it is one of the most important parts of playing live through a amplification rig … "the feel" of the system. That's why I prefer pickups like the Barbera Soloist or Baggs LB6. I mention this because I'm wondering if the TD impacts the response the player feels.
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  #25  
Old 06-19-2017, 04:30 PM
DSP Andy DSP Andy is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rb1591 View Post
Thanks, Andy, for clarifying that.

For the sake of discussion, I would add that from my perspective as a player, string balance is critical, but for a different reason. Good string to string response determines tactile connection between my fingers (or pick) and the sound I hear from my guitar. It's an issue of touch. That may not make sense to some folks, but for me it is one of the most important parts of playing live through a amplification rig … "the feel" of the system. That's why I prefer pickups like the Barbera Soloist or Baggs LB6. I mention this because I'm wondering if the TD impacts the response the player feels.
HI. I agree - you need to get the sound you expect based on whatever action you take.

I found during the course of ToneDexter software development that the increased clarity once I removed all the piezo quack masking effects (reverb, echo, eq, etc.) that my playing deficiencies were suddenly very apparent So I had to clean up my act. But I'm an amateur guitarist, an engineer the rest of the time

There are many ways to get good sound, and you may find that your current rig is what suits you best.

We can't assure you that you will like what the TD will do for you, but we consider it very likely.

We have a no explanation necessary return policy if its not right for you.
Full disclosure: We're not getting many back
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  #26  
Old 06-19-2017, 06:42 PM
buzzardwhiskey buzzardwhiskey is offline
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We played our loudest gig yet this past weekend at an outdoor festival with four 12in curved array speakers per side and two bass-pumping behemoth speakers.

I chose to use the most colored (tight) character setting, and my Tonedexter provided really good, mic-like sound.
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  #27  
Old 06-20-2017, 04:13 AM
guitaniac guitaniac is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by buzzardwhiskey View Post
We played our loudest gig yet this past weekend at an outdoor festival with four 12in curved array speakers per side and two bass-pumping behemoth speakers.

I chose to use the most colored (tight) character setting, and my Tonedexter provided really good, mic-like sound.
Thanks for the observation, David. Were you using the Pure Mini-equipped guitar? That would be encouraging news for Pure Mini users who're considering ToneDexter.
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  #28  
Old 06-20-2017, 06:05 AM
buzzardwhiskey buzzardwhiskey is offline
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Originally Posted by guitaniac View Post
Thanks for the observation, David. Were you using the Pure Mini-equipped guitar? That would be encouraging news for Pure Mini users who're considering ToneDexter.
Yes. I installed a K&K in my CEO-7 a few months back. The super glue on my fingers is almost gone now.
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  #29  
Old 06-20-2017, 07:12 AM
guitaniac guitaniac is offline
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Yes. I installed a K&K in my CEO-7 a few months back. The super glue on my fingers is almost gone now.
Good one! Thanks for the giggle.
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  #30  
Old 06-23-2017, 04:42 AM
AndyC AndyC is offline
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For any interested Brits or Europeans, there's a ToneDexter listed for sale in the UK / EU over on the "AGF Classifieds - Other" section:

http://www.acousticguitarforum.com/f...d.php?t=474266
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