Short scale classical

[rogthefrog]

I recently injured my left (fretting) index finger from overuse, most likely from practicing Barrios's Choro de Saudade and its devilish stretches. I have large hands (10" reach) but evidently that isn't sufficient to avoid injury.

My classical has a 650mm scale length, and I'm beginning to investigate shorter scales (640, 630, 628; I fear anything shorter would be too short for comfort).

Does anyone have experience with those that they could share? I typically play long scale instruments, as a primarily steel-string, fan-fret player, and I've sold off a guitar or two because the 24.9" scale was just "off" enough to mess with my left hand precision.

[Dogsnax]

Rog,

I'd first step back and analyze what caused the problem with the left index finger....It might be something other than long stretches, although I don't know the type or location of the pain. Anyway, that being said....

I have larger hands as well and I prefer playing shorter scale guitars. For some reason I've always preferred the feel of a smaller guitar - just feels easier to manage all-around. I alternate back forth between a 640/51 and 650/52 guitars and there is a difference in the feel, even though the actual physical difference is very small. Like you, I started life as a rock star playing smaller scale electrics and I always preferred the smaller Gibson scale length over the longer Fender scale length.

[Gitfiddlemann]

Back in the late 80s I purchased a Gibson Chet Atkins electric classical (still have it) with a 640mm scale length, and I really liked that size. My regular classical was a Ramirez 1a with a 664mm scale length and it was a beautiful sounding guitar, but not the easiest to play. Those are best suited for serious classical players imo.
Fast forward to now and when I ordered my Cervantes Crossover II (which comes standard with 650mm) I ordered a custom 640mm scale length. My other nylon is a Martin 00-18G, and that has a 645 mm length, so similar.
Around that size seems to be the sweet spot for me.
The standard I use to gauge it is the Bach Prelude BWV 999, with a passage calling for an index on the low F and a three bar pinky on the 5th fret. I remember my old Ramirez, and that stretch was a real bear. That's where I can really tell the difference. I don't think you give up a lot on volume. It all comes down to the design and build.
I would say, try some shorter scales if you can. I bet you will like the results.

[ceciltguitar]

Cordoba is a respected brand that makes short scale guitars.

https://www.cordobaguitars.com/guitars/nylon-string

[hesson11]

I have hand injuries, too, and short scales are all I play. In addition to seconding the Cordoba suggestion, you might want to look up Kenny Hill's line of New World guitars. I've played several, and they are uniformly excellent, at prices that are affordable to many. You might also look up Savage Guitars on Long Island. Click on the "Small Scale guitars" link. One of the best websites in all of classical guitardom, usually with many models to offer. If you give us an idea of your price range, we may be able to make more specific suggestions.
-Bob

[Dogsnax]

Originally Posted by hesson11

I have hand injuries, too, and short scales are all I play. In addition to seconding the Cordoba suggestion, you might want to look up Kenny Hill's line of New World guitars. I've played several, and they are uniformly excellent, at prices that are affordable to many. You might also look up Savage Guitars on Long Island. Click on the "Small Scale guitars" link. One of the best websites in all of classical guitardom, usually with many models to offer.

^^This^^

I second Bob's two recommendations....my 640mm is an awesome Cordoba Master Series Torres and my 650mm is a Kenny Hill New World Player Series...an incredible guitar that sounds as good as $5K classical's I've owned in the past. Savage Classical Guitar is a great online dealer. Rich is a pleasure to work with!

[rogthefrog]

Thanks all for the suggestions.

The Barrios piece has an index finger on the low string, first fret, and a triad on the top strings, 6th fret. I'll learn the thumb over technique, but that won't work for the same chord higher up on the neck later in the piece--no time.

I'll check out the Kenny Hill guitars. They're close to me.

[drjond56]

Kenny Hill has several short scale models across a wide price range.

Jon

[hesson11]

Originally Posted by rogthefrog

I'll learn the thumb over technique

If you mean wrapping the thumb around the bass side of the fretboard, be prepared to suffer the eternal enmity of the classical-guitar community.

(Best to keep that to yourself!)

-Bob

[rogthefrog]

Originally Posted by hesson11

If you mean wrapping the thumb around the bass side of the fretboard, be prepared to suffer the eternal enmity of the classical-guitar community.

(Best to keep that to yourself!)

-Bob

I mean the alternate fingering where you flip your hand around and have fingers + thumb on the fretboard side, and fret the bass note with the outside of your thumb. It's a common way to play that piece of your hands are smaller (or injured). You can see it around 1:29 here:



I've already drawn opprobrium from the classical community, and likely from steel stringers too (behind my back, mostly) so it doesn't matter much

[hesson11]

Oh, you mean THAT thumb-over technique! :-)

I imagine I could screw that up pretty spectacularly.
-Bob

[creamburmese]

I've got a 630mm spruce/rosewood classical built by Douglass Scott in Canada - lovely sweet tone - he builds as low as 615 - and I have a double top 630 coming from another Canadian luthier - Marcus Dominelli - you can hear his short scale guitars being reviewed by Brad Werner on thisisclassicalguitar. I don't know why Canadian luthiers seem more open to building shorter scale lengths - I couldn't interest either of our local luthiers (David Pace and Ross Gutmeier) in building a 630 though they will build 640's.

I switch fairly easily between my classicals (different scale lengths and nut widths) and my Taylor - usually takes about 10 minutes and then the fingers readjust. I play a classical position on the acoustic and the classical though - I guess you might have more trouble if you are playing the classical in a steel string position like in your videos?

I don't think you can generalize that professionals play 660's - I know Matt Palmer for instance plays a 640 Michael Thames and he's no slouch (nor does he have particularly small hands) 640's are usually the same body size as 650's whereas 630's are about a cm smaller (at least mine is). I had a 630 Kenny Hill Player and to be honest I wasn't that impressed - I'd buy one of the solid Cordobas in the same price range or look for a used guitar built by a luthier first. So far as volume goes, although it's commonly thought that smaller body sizes are quieter - my friend plays a 630 Ramirez and it's the loudest guitar in the orchestra (except my 645 DT lol) ;

[creamburmese]

double post sorry

[creamburmese]

I've got a 630mm spruce/rosewood classical built by Douglass Scott in Canada - lovely sweet tone - he builds as low as 615 - and I have a double top 630 coming from another Canadian luthier - Marcus Dominelli - you can hear his short scale guitars being reviewed by Brad Werner on thisisclassicalguitar. I don't know why Canadian luthiers seem more open to building shorter scale lengths - I couldn't interest either of our local luthiers (David Pace and Ross Gutmeier) in building a 630 though they will build 640's.

I don't think you can generalize that professionals play 660 - I know Matt Palmer for instance plays a 640 Michael Thames and he's no slouch (nor does he have particularly small hands) 640's are usually the same body size as 650's whereas 630's are about a cm smaller (at least mine is). I had a 630 Kenny Hill Player and to be honest I wasn't that impressed - I'd buy one of the solid Cordobas in the same price range or look for a used guitar built by a luthier first.

[rogthefrog]

Originally Posted by hesson11

Oh, you mean THAT thumb-over technique! :-)

I imagine I could screw that up pretty spectacularly.
-Bob

It does take some doing