violin repair question-

[stoneaxe]

If this is in the wrong spot, please move it. I am hoping some of you are experienced with violins, as ya'all have been so helpful with my guitar repair questions.
I bought this in a flea market type shop. Clearly marked as a Czech copy of Stradivarius. I purchased it because the wood looked nice,, and it is mostly just missing parts, with no structural damage obvious save for a couple of minor separations of the top and sides. The top looks to be fine grain spruce, back and sides to be maple. No case, no bow, no bridge, missing pegs and nut. The fingerboard has been reglued as it does not fit the neck exactly. The back and top are bookmatched, the sides are not, although curly maple.
Can anyone shed some light? Is this likely be an OK instrument with some basic work? should I just give it to a repair person who is experienced in violin repair? My gut feeling is it is a student instrument from the past 50 years or so, as all it has is a trademark for ID. Is it worth saving?

[D. Churchland]

Definitely a student instrument. If you want to make it playable you'll be well over what it's worth. But on the other hand it is good practice to repair things like this.

There is a crack that needs to be addressed in the top near the tailpiece.

Do you have pictures of the fingerboard? You say it was replaced can you see gaps with glue visible on the sides?

One note is that your repairs will be made much more complicated if the glue used to build it was anything other than hide glue. Traditionally quality violins are assembled with hide glue since it's relatively (ymmv) easy to work, and violins can (and often do) require the top to be removed in order to repair things like cracks.

[stoneaxe]

Yes, there is a little glue showing on the edges of the ebony FB. Also it has a slight overlap and it looks like the shelf for the nut is too small. This is why I think it was replaced or reglued. Stew-mac has some basic parts, probably $50-75 will buy pegs and tailpiece, strings etc. It cost me the price of a hamburger so I will monkey around with it this winter when I have time. It will be , as you suggested, a good learning experience.

[Bruce Sexauer]

The fingerboard on a violin is usually glued on with "thin" Hot hide glue as it is removed without major consideration for many maintenance operations, specifically to facilitate the removal of the top plate. I agree that the instrument is a student level, but it could be a decent player despite that. I do caution you that fiddling around with violins can be extremely addictive, though it rarely kills anyone.

[LouieAtienza]

Originally Posted by Bruce Sexauer

"fiddling around with violins can be extremely addictive, though it rarely kills anyone."

Quote of the year, so far!

[John Arnold]

I am sure someone could pin it down based on the label style. IMHO, it's pretty nice wood for a student grade instrument.

[Ned Milburn]

FWIW, a friend of mine buys old instruments like this on ebay or similar. Then he fixes them and re-sells. Some instruments turn out to be worth a few thousand bucks. I am NOT a violin person, so sadly, I can't say anything specifically about the instrument. If you want to PM me and send me your email, I can connect you two by email and maybe he can give you some more info.

[printer2]

Might be a place to check out.

http://www.maestronet.com/forum/inde.../4-the-pegbox/

[jessupe]

FYI the instrument has a potential expensive and or time consuming repair in that observation of the saddle area shows a "saddle crack" has developed, most likely based on a tight fitting saddle expanding and causing the initial split, once split the downforce along with normal expansion and contraction will cause it to keep growing. Generally the top needs to come off, the crack cleaned, glued and cleated.

For your own enjoyment and learning, these can be fun to work on, but can be very expensive to repair if you have someone else do it.

[murrmac123]

Originally Posted by jessupe

F observation of the saddle area shows a "saddle crack" has developed, most likely based on a tight fitting saddle expanding and causing the initial split.

Just for the benefit of anybody confused by jessupe's use of the term "saddle" the saddle on a violin has nothing to do with a guitar saddle ... it is the ebony strip which protects the edge of the top from the pressure exerted by the tailgut (the cord which holds the tailpiece).

[Ned Milburn]

Originally Posted by murrmac123

Just for the benefit of anybody confused by jessupe's use of the term "saddle" the saddle on a violin has nothing to do with a guitar saddle ... it is the ebony strip which protects the edge of the top from the pressure exerted by the tailgut (the cord which holds the tailpiece).

Yeah, that's good to know!!! ;-) Thanks.

[Sperry]

On a few cheaper violins, under $400 in value, I've knocked out the saddle, cleaned up the slot, filed half a millimeter off one end of the saddle, taped off a little crack like that, forced in a little CA glue, reset the saddle with just a daub of wood glue, and called it a day.

Likewise, I've popped the top off even cheaper violins and gone hog-wild with restorations.

Another area the top splits is where it slips into the neck. Both the maple neck and ebony saddle are more dense and less likely, I believe, to change shape. But the spruce top goes wiggly and wonky with the changing humidity and temperature.

That is why the top is fastened with hide glue, a little tighter than failure, I've heard. It is designed to come loose rather than split (in theory).

Tight saddle fit does wonderful things for the sound. A rocky, uneven fit, once I did, and the tone reflected the fit. After removing the saddle, tidying up the slot, then shaving and filing the saddle, the tone was vastly improved. By tight, I mean full contact against the rib and top. The two ends, right or wrong, I try to leave the thickness of a business card or a little less. The teacher who sells and uses the instruments I refurbish prefers to see a tiny tiny gap at the ends of the saddle rather than a super-tight fit.

Maybe because of personal experience?

A well-known shop put a saddle on his $10,000 viola which ten or so years later may have contributed to a small top crack. That repair job actually came to me. Upon examination, my recommendation was to do nothing other than making a small adjustment of the saddle.

Recently I did notice an anomaly on the set-up on his $50,000 violin. The saddle is cut rather low, and the ends of the new adjustable tailpiece wire were touching the top. He's having the shop which did the set-up correct it (they charged enough!).

It is, in the end, a bunch of little things that make a good sound. Tight nut & saddle, a nicely shaved bridge, sound post placement, solidly glued top and back.

Here's a cello bridge that came out pretty well. It looks thick across the top, but I'd be reluctant to thin the bridge any further:

[Bruce Sexauer]

On an instrument of the quality I think this is, I would address the saddle induced crack by taking the 10 thou kerf StewMac backsaw I have (doesn't everyone?) and relieving the spruce on both sides of the saddle, assuming it is glued in solidly. Then I would put a few drops of hot hide glue on the crack and use my finger to hydraulically work in the glue. After an hour I would clean up with warm water, and then dry it being cautious not to clean the glue out of the crack. The saddle being the cause due to the top shrinking in dry weather, and being no longer too long, the glued crack should be quite stable. If the instrument turns out to be better than expected, the more complex and expensive job of removing the top and doing the work properly is in no way compromised.

[stoneaxe]

Thank you all for this wealth of info!

[printer2]

The important thing that Bruce is saying it to use HHG. Then any further repairs that need to be done in the future (even if it is next week) is not compromised.