Nut Slot Files: Is there a less expensive way?

[tadol]

Man - I just LOVE Franks posts - pure, reasonable, and practical. But I am definitely in the too afraid to just do it camp (at least with guitars - no such problems with many other endeavors). Reading this kind of encouragement is just the kick in the rear needed. But I am also in the "bite the bullet and get or make the right tool" camp -

Whats frustrating is that this kind of approach is great in the "Build and Repair" area, but in the general forum, if you make even the tiniest mistake, however accidental or minor, too many guitar owners (not sure how many are really players) will vilify you and expect to be given a brand new guitar plus damages and other compensation.

Oh well - we're just not particularly reasonable animals -

[Frank Ford]

Groucho was right.

[LouieAtienza]

Originally Posted by BothHands

Frank and Ned ==

I appreciate your comments and I take them in the positive spirit in which I'm sure they're meant. In fact, I take them quite seriously and must admit to being more or less guilty as charged, but in defense of my (perhaps maddening) approach consider the following:

1. The point of this forum is to share information about these issues, and if some of us with little experience happen to go kinda nerdy about certain topics, that's to be expected. That said, you're right - there's a natural point at which to stop seeking advice.

2. You probably can't imagine this, but I'm not trying to become a guitar tech. I would love to develop a fraction of the skills you guys have, but unless I take a job repairing guitars somewhere (and who would hire me for that?) I'm not likely to work on enough instruments to build the necessary experience.

My interest is in having two decent acoustic guitars (not expensive guitars, not yet) that sound as good as possible without my doubling the cost of each by paying a professional for additional setups, tweaks and mods. Whatever I can do for myself, I'll do. And what I can't do might not get done for a long time because bux is seriously low.

3. If I screw up one of my guitars, that one is seriously out-of-service...maybe forever. I don't have a lot of guitars and never wanted a lot. Just two and I'm good, and I don't have access to anybody else's guitars to work on, experiment on, or use as "loners" if I accidently turn one of mine into fireplace kindling.

I think it was Groucho Marx who said, You'll never be successful at anything for which you have too much respect. I am very respectful of quality luthiery - maybe way too respectful, so I appreciate you cluing me in. I always "consider the source" and MAN(!) you guys are THE SOURCE. So thanks.

Bone nut =$3. Tape off anything you don't want scratched. You screw up, .make another one. It won't permanently disable your guitar. In fact getting it playable again should be motivation enough for learning. The biggest cost is time; 2 weeks on something that takes a half hour if I took my time. Even if it took you all day you still come out 13 days ahead! ,You can always replace money. You can't replace time...

[charles Tauber]

Originally Posted by Frank Ford

Groucho was right.

I've been a Marxist for quite a long time: Groucho, not Karl.

[murrmac123]

Originally Posted by charles Tauber

I've been a Marxist for quite a long time: Groucho, not Karl.

Groucho was a competent and enthusiastic guitar player.

He would undoubtedly have been the wit, the wag, the funny man of the AGF if it had been around in his day.

[charles Tauber]

Originally Posted by murrmac123

Groucho was a competent and enthusiastic guitar player.

He would undoubtedly have been the wit, the wag, the funny man of the AGF if it had been around in his day.

I think Frank had something more specific in mind.

[Frank Ford]

Originally Posted by charles Tauber

I think Frank had something more specific in mind.

Yep - I see Groucho saying, "You'll never be successful at anything for which you have too much respect" as simple statement of the wisdom that we all are familiar with when we hear about brain surgeons not wanting to work on family members. The fear of negative outcome can paralyze the effort to do good solid work.

[BothHands]

Originally Posted by LouieAtienza

Bone nut =$3. Tape off anything you don't want scratched. You screw up, .make another one. It won't permanently disable your guitar. In fact getting it playable again should be motivation enough for learning. The biggest cost is time; 2 weeks on something that takes a half hour if I took my time. Even if it took you all day you still come out 13 days ahead! ,You can always replace money. You can't replace time...

You're right of course, Louie. A good reality check for me and for others reading this thread.

I've been curious to see what effect Graph Tech TUSQ has on tone, so I bought two saddle blanks (for two guitars) and one nut blank, for my first nut experiment. Just to recap, the question posed by this thread of mine was simply, "Is there a cheaper way for me to experiment - rather than buying $80 to $130 worth of specialized files?" I do want to learn to make my own nuts, but am not in a position to spend that kind of money on files (the discussion moved beyond my question). So we're all basically on the same page. Beers for everyone...on me.

John Arnold
Thanks for the further details on your razor saw blades. Either I'll buy the version with the handle, and separate blade from handle - or I'll find the bare blades. This seems like the best way for me to make the initial kerf and to set the initial depth. I think this method will let me take it very slowly...maybe the full two weeks, per Louie's scenario.

Charles
HA! I've been that kind of Marxist for a long time myself. Himself turned loose on any online forum would have people falling off their chairs. And he'd certainly keep the moderators busy.

Murray / Murrmac123
I read a serious book about Groucho Marx years ago and don't recall any mention of him playing guitar. That's fascinating, and it doesn't surprise me now that you mention it.

tadol
Good point about the different perspectives belonging to guitar makers, guitar players and guitar owners:

The makers are like guys who engineer racing cars, and maybe like the guys who work as the pit crew. For them, form follows function. First it has to work right, and THEN, if we can swing it, we'll make everything look decent.

The real players are like the race car drivers. Sure, they'd like to be driving the fanciest, most beautiful car in the field, BUT...first and foremost, that car has to perform. Looking good while winning is important, but not absolutely necessary. Winning (tone and playability) is necessary.

The guitar owners/collectors are like wealthy automobile collectors/connoisseurs. They love each guitar for its refinement, its reputation, its monetary value, its perfection so to speak. Any flaw or any damage that occurs is a BIG DEAL to them.

I've been a player for more than three decades. My one-and-only guitar just happened to turn into a unique (and possibly collectible) instrument along the way, and I've become very protective of it - not because I'm a collector by any means, but because I have great appreciation for that guitar and how unique it is. I'd be hard pressed to ever replace it.

So I've been straddling the line between player and collector for years, and only now have ventured into this amazing realm of real Luthiery, where Theory and Practice meet head-to-head - and if they don't meet squarely, a fine guitar can be reduced to just a "wooden object". Finances being what they are, I can't afford to create any unexpected "wooden objects" right now.

I much appreciate you fellows letting me in here and contributing to these discussions. It's truly a privilege.

[BothHands]

Originally Posted by Frank Ford

Yep - I see Groucho saying, "You'll never be successful at anything for which you have too much respect" as simple statement of the wisdom that we all are familiar with when we hear about brain surgeons not wanting to work on family members. The fear of negative outcome can paralyze the effort to do good solid work.

There's a term, Analysis Paralysis, wherein the subject becomes paralyzed and unable to move forward by having too many options from which to choose. I think that one applies as well.

Someone told me a parable recently that goes something like this:

The rabbit runs and gets away because it's all he knows to do.
The fox, who is clever, knows many ways, but gets trapped while making his decision.

So yeah, I get it. Thanks.

[stanron]

Was it just a dream or did I really see a bit of film with Groucho playing guitar to a girl in a punt? And didn't the guitar end up in the water?

[Frank Ford]

He played a classic 16" L-5, but the guitar that went in the drink was a stunt instrument - visible here:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0lCPmaq960E

[stanron]

That's the clip. Nice to see him play some of the shortcut chords we use today too. Watching it again he throws the guitar out of shot, and although you hear a splash you see no ripples.

[Alan Carruth]

Frank Ford wrote:
"I've been at this 45 years nonstop full time, and I make mistakes - LOTS of mistakes. Mistakes are fun - they're what it's all about - the journey after all. ."

I've always said that:
Apprentices make mistakes, but don't know it,
Journeymen make mistakes, and hide them,
Masters make mistakes, but they're part of their style.

At some point I hope that a preponderance on my mistakes will be stylistic; until then I'm working on better ways to hide them.

Nut and saddle work is ideal territory if you can't abide mistakes. Just put the old nut and saddle aside, work on the replacements, and use whichever ones come out the best. It may take a few tries to make improvements over the originals, but in the meantime all you're out is the time and minimal materials.

[BothHands]

Originally Posted by Alan Carruth

At some point I hope that a preponderance on my mistakes will be stylistic; until then I'm working on better ways to hide them.

HA! Candor + Humor, how refreshing.

Originally Posted by Alan Carruth

Nut and saddle work is ideal territory if you can't abide mistakes. Just put the old nut and saddle aside, work on the replacements, and use whichever ones come out the best. It may take a few tries to make improvements over the originals, but in the meantime all you're out is the time and minimal materials.

Thanks Alan, and I'm sure you're right. I just need some decent tools (the point of my starting this thread in the first place).

[JLT]

Originally Posted by Alan Carruth

Frank Ford wrote:
"I've been at this 45 years nonstop full time, and I make mistakes - LOTS of mistakes. Mistakes are fun - they're what it's all about - the journey after all. ."

I've always said that:
Apprentices make mistakes, but don't know it,
Journeymen make mistakes, and hide them,
Masters make mistakes, but they're part of their style.

My favorite quote on that is this one, by somebody you might have heard of:

"A master is someone who has made more mistakes than you, has made mistakes you haven't made yet, and has learned how to embrace them--thus learning to see them coming before they happen. So you go towards mastery one mistake at a time. How many mistakes can you stand? As many as it takes to be a master. The master has persevered past the errors until he's made all of them."

--William Cumpiano

I can only add three comments on this thread:

1. I agree that you shouldn't be afraid of doing it yourself. The only real penalty is if you make the cut too deep, in which case you use some baking soda and CA glue to fill the slot and have another go at it.

2. I made my first nut files by taking saber saw blades and grinding them to the appropriate thicknesses. They worked, but left the bottom of the slot flat rather than rounded. After I while, I was making enough varieties of instruments, which required more than a simple set of six standard thicknesses, that I broke down and bought a set of proper files, and haven't regretted it. It was money well spent.

3. I've written up how I slot nuts using feeler gauges and a continuity tester on my website:

http://midtown.net/dragonwing/nutcase.htm

BTW, Mark Twain played the guitar, too. I think he and Groucho would have gotten along just fine.