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  #46  
Old 09-19-2014, 11:40 AM
Herb Hunter Herb Hunter is offline
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Originally Posted by SongwriterFan View Post
But it DOES matter if it turns out to be wrong. Why? Because it will COST a LOT to do all the proposed things that supposedly need doing.

The "green" folks will never show you the total bill . . . ever wonder why that is?
And the fossil fuel industry for which you work has and will do everything it can to cast doubt, after the fashion of the tobacco industry, on sound scientific research and calculations on the total cost of continuing to use fossil fuels which already exceeds the cost of converting to alternative energy sources.

It is astonishing how persuasive that industry has become in an effort to protect its profits at society’s expense. Why anyone would choose to believe the disinformation from petroleum and gas companies over the research that science yields is beyond me. People trust science with their lives every single day except when the fossil fuel industry tells them to disbelieve facts that could threaten company profits.

Last edited by Herb Hunter; 09-19-2014 at 12:53 PM. Reason: Fixed awkward sentence
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  #47  
Old 09-19-2014, 11:42 AM
Herb Hunter Herb Hunter is offline
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Wind power is a huge mess in Ontario, with no end in sight.

http://www.windontario.ca/

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/repor...rticle4103467/
Fossil fuel power is a far, far greater mess.
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  #48  
Old 09-19-2014, 11:50 AM
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I partially het with firewood (I love a woodburning fireplace and I use it to supplement my furnace heat).

I go through 3+ face cords per year. I just ordered my wood and all the wood suppliers are out of wood. Bad winter last year, wet spring, bad winter prediction for this year made the supply/demand see-saw really tilt.

And we have an infestation of Ash Borer Beetles so you can't move firewood more than 50 miles.



Fortunately prices haven't skyrocketed yet.
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  #49  
Old 09-19-2014, 12:19 PM
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Originally Posted by duff beer View Post
Which charts...the ones that NOAA altered to make the past appear cooler?

http://wattsupwiththat.com/2012/06/0...paper-records/



Are they any more biased than the IPCC?
Odds are Yes significantly


Again from media matters
http://mediamatters.org/blog/2012/11...machine/191545

Anthony Watts "wattsupwiththat .com"


Anthony Watts, a former television weatherman and climate skeptic who believes the U.S. temperature record is "unreliable," runs the blog Watts Up With That. The blog features the fringe views of climate misinformers like Christopher Monckton and Fred Singer as guest authors and conservative media have previously seized on its misleading content.

In 2009, Watts was a driving force behind the controversy over leaked "Climategate" emails. In September 2012, he was at the center of a controversial PBS segment that aired his views as a "counterbalance" to climate experts without mentioning his ties to the industry-funded Heartland Institute. Watts was paid by the Heartland Institute for his work on temperature stations and is a regular speaker at Heartland conferences.
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Last edited by KevWind; 09-19-2014 at 12:31 PM.
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  #50  
Old 09-19-2014, 02:12 PM
duff beer duff beer is offline
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How does any of that explain NOAA's altered climate data?

If you're going to question Watts, don't forget to investigate Obama's science advisor, John Holdren, who has a hand in developing climate policies:

"Mr. Holdren’s zeal, and his tendency to present somewhat alarming visions of the future, have stirred controversy. During his Senate confirmation hearings in 2009, critics pointed out a textbook of which he was an author in the 1970s that examined the threat of overpopulation and discussed potential ways to avoid it, including forcing pregnant single women to undergo abortions and adding chemicals to drinking water to make people infertile."

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/07/04/us...cies.html?_r=0

http://www.pop.org/content/president...-czar--dr-1958
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  #51  
Old 09-19-2014, 02:28 PM
YamaYairi YamaYairi is offline
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All I know is...September is almost over! (Shudder)
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  #52  
Old 09-19-2014, 03:30 PM
RedJoker RedJoker is offline
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Thanks guys for your replies. I agree it's about the cost if we're wrong, or cost if we're, or whatever. What everyone is concerned about, is their own $$$$. Yet, these conversations are about throwing blame about on the subject of "climate change."

I wonder if folks would rather argue about the validity of the science (either way, both sides do it), than just admit that they are concerned about the money aspect? No one looks good when we try to argue about money.

The carbon credit was listed above. What are some good alternatives? (Frankly, I don't know much about it but it seems like a stupid way to go about things.)

As far as the cold winter, I have a wood pellet stove, an oil furnace, and an electric heat pump, all ready to try to keep me warm.
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  #53  
Old 09-19-2014, 03:45 PM
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That reminds me - I need to get my truck oil sprayed before the snow gets here...lol
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  #54  
Old 09-19-2014, 03:49 PM
Wardo Wardo is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by duff beer View Post
Wind power is a huge mess in Ontario, with no end in sight.

http://www.windontario.ca/

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/repor...rticle4103467/
Yup, the jokers that stuck that on us need to be waterboarded out the door of a helicopter at 5000 feet.
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  #55  
Old 09-19-2014, 04:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by duff beer View Post
How does any of that explain NOAA's altered climate data?
It wasn't altered, that's a claim only found on Watts blog the data set used apparently differs from what Watt used. Different ? yes ...... "altered' ? ..... specious.

Quote:
If you're going to question Watts, don't forget to investigate Obama's science advisor, John Holdren, who has a hand in developing climate policies:
Ok lets see ?
Watts : Willard Anthony Watts is an American meteorologist[2][3] (AMS seal holder, president of IntelliWeather Inc.,editor of the blog, Watts Up With That?, and founder of the Surface Stations Project, a volunteer initiative to document the set up and maintenance of weather stations across the United States, funded by the ultra conservative anti climate change, Heartland Institute.

Holdren : Dr. Holdren holds advanced degrees in aerospace engineering and theoretical plasma physics from MIT and Stanford. He is a member of the National Academy of Sciences, the National Academy of Engineering, and the American Academy of Arts and Sciences, as well as a foreign member of the Royal Society of London and former president of the American Association for the Advancement of Science. He served as a member of the MacArthur Foundation’s Board of Trustees from 1991 to 2005, as Chair of the National Academy of Sciences Committee on International Security and Arms Control from 1994 to 2005, and as Co-Chair of the independent, bipartisan National Commission on Energy Policy from 2002 to 2009. His awards include a MacArthur Foundation Prize Fellowship, the John Heinz Prize in Public Policy, the Tyler Prize for Environmental Achievement, and the Volvo Environment Prize. In December 1995 he gave the acceptance lecture for the Nobel Peace Prize on behalf of the Pugwash Conferences on Science and World Affairs, an international organization of scientists and public figures in which he held leadership positions from 1982 to 1997.



Quote:
"Mr. Holdren’s zeal, and his tendency to present somewhat alarming visions of the future, have stirred controversy. During his Senate confirmation hearings in 2009, critics pointed out a textbook of which he was an author in the 1970s that examined the threat of overpopulation and discussed potential ways to avoid it, including forcing pregnant single women to undergo abortions and adding chemicals to drinking water to make people infertile."
To clarify the book being referred to simply pointed what could possibly be drastic measures some countries might take if overpopulation does becomes a significant problem. BUT the book did not "advocate" such measures as some conservatives in the hearing questioned, based on a false claim made by Glenn Beck, which got the highest rating of lie ...."Pants on Fire" from politifact.org. Also interesting to note he was confirmed unanimously.
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Last edited by KevWind; 09-19-2014 at 05:01 PM.
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  #56  
Old 09-19-2014, 05:15 PM
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I'm in Minnesota. It's pretty much guaranteed that winter will suck. Beyond a certain point, the degree of suckiness is somewhat moot.

However, this year I have noted that, as fall progresses, the birds are draining the feeders at quite an alarming rate. Either that, or the darn squirrels have found a way around my barricades again.
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  #57  
Old 09-19-2014, 05:39 PM
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you'll find out!

i'm worried about the 100 plus temperature we've been having combined with our coming late sept. santa ana winds! fireseason!

play music!
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  #58  
Old 09-19-2014, 09:28 PM
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Yup, the jokers that stuck that on us need to be waterboarded out the door of a helicopter at 5000 feet.
Many countries are using wind power. Canada is suffering as the US is from a hard swing to the right, where no middle ground is permitted (I am quoting Colin Powell here). Of course, what antagonizes them the most is the notion that anything could get in the way of shipping oil to China. They really hate that idea. Our Prime Minister is pure and simple, an oil company shill. So expect right wing rags to complain about anything but fracking. Wind power is viable, its just that here in the Canada/US land mass, we are backward, kind of hoping for a revival of 1952.
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  #59  
Old 09-20-2014, 12:36 AM
ahutt59 ahutt59 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Davis Webb View Post
Many countries are using wind power. Canada is suffering as the US is from a hard swing to the right, where no middle ground is permitted (I am quoting Colin Powell here). Of course, what antagonizes them the most is the notion that anything could get in the way of shipping oil to China. They really hate that idea. Our Prime Minister is pure and simple, an oil company shill. So expect right wing rags to complain about anything but fracking. Wind power is viable, its just that here in the Canada/US land mass, we are backward, kind of hoping for a revival of 1952.
Wind power isn't economically viable outside of of government subsidies. The rated capacity of a wind farm generally yields about 1/3 actual power and it also doesn't usually correspond to demand. If energy storage technology was up to the task then perhaps it would be viable from a demand perspective, but until then the only on-demand (24/7, which is what the grid needs) power source is fossil (natural gas, coal, combined cycle, etc). Also, wind power costs about 3-4 times per kWh that coal does.
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  #60  
Old 09-20-2014, 04:38 AM
Twelvefret Twelvefret is offline
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I've been using 50 feet of black hose to heat the water I use for my outside shower. At least I am doing my part to end global warming.
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