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  #31  
Old 04-24-2015, 05:18 PM
EoE EoE is offline
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ok I have a tune built around a 9 tone scale....F G Ab A Bb C D E F. the main chord is F Bb G C A do not invert tones. the A is played up high. like tone 20 . a example of a simple exotic scale .
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  #32  
Old 04-24-2015, 09:17 PM
NewGuitarist NewGuitarist is offline
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Thanks a lot folks!

Jon, what can I say... thaaaaaaaanks! This helps A LOT!
You just schooled me on stuff I've spent a long time trying (and struggling) to see them for what they really are. yeaaah!

So before the normal major and minor keys, there were four old modes Dorian, Mixolydian, Phrygian and Lydian. So basically these four only, right?

It makes sense now to me that scales don't define genres but man the phrygian does usually sound spanish and it's found in flamenco music, AFAIK.
Which means each one of the other three might have a sound that lends itself to a certain music genre in one way or another, right?

Now here comes another question, (sorry if I'm bothering you but I'm really enjoying reading your posts) since you said that the harmony concept (chords) is almost absent in some European folk music and in music from other cultures around the world ( I would believe you were referring to Eastern and Arabic music, right?). So in these music genres they use different types of scales from the ones normally used in western music, maybe the octave would be divided differently as well.. that leaves me wondering they should have a different approach to music? Like a new kind of music theory or something?!
So all these years and years one might spend exploring and learning about diatonic and chromatic harmony.. this all just means nothing when it comes to those types of music!!

Yet I can only imagine what a music genre that makes use of those additional scales from the other musical cultures yet still has a rich harmony would sound like!

After the free modal jazz, do you think that jazz would some day even start to use new scales other than the ones from the western musical culture?
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  #33  
Old 04-25-2015, 02:30 AM
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Originally Posted by NewGuitarist View Post

Yet I can only imagine what a music genre that makes use of those additional scales from the other musical cultures yet still has a rich harmony would sound like!

?
A lot of contemporary classical composers, like Messiaen for instance, were heavily influenced by world music and drew from the scales and rhythmic techniques of different musical cultures. It was a natural direction for classical music to move in.
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  #34  
Old 04-25-2015, 11:11 AM
EoE EoE is offline
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music from India uses a very complex system it is a movable 7 tone scale which can be divided up into 11 or 18 semi tones, something like that I am not well versed on it. they have like 32 or 72 scales. depending on tradition. gave me a headache studying it so I quit.
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  #35  
Old 04-25-2015, 12:23 PM
JonPR JonPR is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NewGuitarist View Post
Thanks a lot folks!

Jon, what can I say... thaaaaaaaanks! This helps A LOT!
You just schooled me on stuff I've spent a long time trying (and struggling) to see them for what they really are. yeaaah!

So before the normal major and minor keys, there were four old modes Dorian, Mixolydian, Phrygian and Lydian. So basically these four only, right?
As the foundation, yes. But they also used what were called "plagal" or "hypo" versions, which had the same keynote (known as the "finalis"), but a lower range..
Code:
                      | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
I   - DORIAN:                   D . E F . G . A . B C . D
II  - HYPODORIAN:     A . B C . D . E F . G . A
III - PHRYGIAN                      E F . G . A . B C . D . E
IV  - HYPOPHRYGIAN        B C . D . E F . G . A . B
V   - LYDIAN                          F . G . A . B C . D . E F
VI  - HYPOLYDIAN            C . D . E F . G . A . B C
VII - MIXOLYDIAN                          G . A . B C . D . E F . G
VIII- HYPOMIXOLYDIAN            D . E F . G . A . B C . D
The finals are marked in red and the dominants underlined.
So you might think Hypodorian looks like Aeolian, but D is still the keynote, so it's simply another version of Dorian. Likewise, Hypolydian is not the same as Ionian.
The "dominant" btw, was also known as the "cofinalis", or "reciting tone", reflecting how it was literally a dominant note in the body of the piece, a kind of melodic focal point; the "finalis" (what we'd call a "keynote) arriving - as you might guess - at the conclusion.

Notice the dominant is the 5th of the scale in only three modes! But it was the 5th in both Ionian and Aeolian when they were admitted into the system in the 16th century - and it was those two, of course, which evolved into our major and minor keys.

Bear in mind you can't really understand the medieval system from our modern perspective, from how we use scales today. It's at least as foreign to us n the west now as (say) Indian raga is.

(You can of course find out more online if you're interested...)
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Originally Posted by NewGuitarist View Post
It makes sense now to me that scales don't define genres but man the phrygian does usually sound spanish and it's found in flamenco music, AFAIK.
Right. Phrygian (and phrygian dominant, 5th mode of harmonic minor) is a popular sound in a lot of European gypsy music - Jewish as well as Spanisn, which is where we get that association.
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Originally Posted by NewGuitarist View Post
Which means each one of the other three might have a sound that lends itself to a certain music genre in one way or another, right?
Not quite.

Mixolydian does have a kind of "blues groove" sound, but it can also have a distinctly "Indian" sound, which the Beatles (Lennon and Harrison in particular) latched on to.
You can hear their love for mixolydian (although they didn't know its name of course) in tunes like "Tomorrow Never Knows", "Within You Without You", "Norwegian Wood" (main section), "Dear Prudence", "She Said She Said", and "If I Needed Someone".
Its rock-blues sound is more widespread, in tunes like Sympathy for the Devil, Sweet Child o Mine, or Heroes (Bowie).
There are countless examples in rock. Any time you have a major key with a bVII chord (or a minor V), you have an essentially mixolydian effect -although most rock songs with a bVII will also have a major V somewhere (from the normal major scale).
Steve Earle's Copperhead Road is nice mixolydian mandolin tune! A few old Scots or Irish folk tunes are also mixolydian, like She Moved Through The Fair, or Blackwaterside.

Dorian is popular in Cuban music, and it's often associated with Santana. Oye Como Va is entirely in A dorian mode. Evil Ways is mostly Dorian.
It's less common in mainstream rock than mixolydian, but you hear it in the solo of "Light My Fire", and in a few other Doors tunes. (Ray Manzarek was one of the few 60s rockers who actually knew about modes....)
Kraftwerk's "Model" is dorian.

Lydian is perhaps the rarest of all, although Joe Satriani loves it. "Flying in a Blue Dream" is a great text-book example (even the title expresses what many feel is the "lydian mood": bright, airy and blue.)

With the Beatles again, there are hints of Lydian in "Blue Jay Way" (F# note in key of C major). Dream Theater's "Strange Deja Vu" is also lydian.

Notice none of these modes really defines genres. It's more to do with setting up specific moods, subtly different from the usual major and minor keys.
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Originally Posted by NewGuitarist View Post
Now here comes another question, (sorry if I'm bothering you but I'm really enjoying reading your posts) since you said that the harmony concept (chords) is almost absent in some European folk music and in music from other cultures around the world ( I would believe you were referring to Eastern and Arabic music, right?). So in these music genres they use different types of scales from the ones normally used in western music, maybe the octave would be divided differently as well.
Not really. The way we divide the octave - into seven irregular steps of whole and half steps - is pretty universal, at least in Europe and across to the Middle East and India, and also in Africa.
Pentatonics (major or minor) are popular in Africa, China and Japan, but again the pitches they contain are very similar to ones we could take from our 12-tone octave.
Where folk (and other) cultures will typically differ is in tuning. Our system of equal temperament is an artificial compromise to allow all 12 keys to sound the same without having to retune for each one. In ET, every single note (except the octave) is actually slightly out of tune, because it's been "tempered" this way or that to be an exact 12th.
In cultures that don't use harmony (or only very simple kinds, with no modulations), they obviously don't need such a compromise. Even so, attitudes to tuning can still be surprising - if one thinks that "purity of sound" is an ideal. In Indonesia, they use 5- and 7-note scales, but tuned in a very strange way (to our ears), presumably because they like the dissonances notes set up when heard together (eg in gamelan orchestras).
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Originally Posted by NewGuitarist View Post
that leaves me wondering they should have a different approach to music? Like a new kind of music theory or something?!
So all these years and years one might spend exploring and learning about diatonic and chromatic harmony.. this all just means nothing when it comes to those types of music!!
Exactly! Those musics all have their own "common practices", well understood by the musicians, although most of the time very little, if any, of it will be written down. Indian raga - extremely sophisticated - is taught entirely by ear and example; which is why it takes years, even decades to become proficient at it.
Even flamenco has its own concepts and jargon (google "compas" and "falsetas" )
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Originally Posted by NewGuitarist View Post
Yet I can only imagine what a music genre that makes use of those additional scales from the other musical cultures yet still has a rich harmony would sound like!
Right. If you want weird ethnic harmony, try these:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sZZTfu4jWcI
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j9MPFS977-Q
(When I first heard that second track, around 30 years ago, it was an incredible epiphany. It's still among my favourite 5 pieces of recorded music ever. Speaking of jazz, I had a friend who was playing in a jazz big band at that time, and he told me how they'd listen to that album on the tour bus, open-mouthed at the unheard harmonies.)
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Originally Posted by NewGuitarist View Post
After the free modal jazz, do you think that jazz would some day even start to use new scales other than the ones from the western musical culture?
No reason why not - except that the usual jazz instruments are set up for western 12-tone ET. You could play ethnic scales on instruments like violin, cello, double bass, or trombone - but you'd have trouble on other horns or guitar, and on piano it would be impossible.
But jazz has managed to incorporate some ethnic music. Here's some cool jazz oud :
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Om9vwWYW7eg
Historically, btw, "al 'oud" > "lute" > "guitar", so I guess what goes around comes around...

And how about this, for Jazz meets Trinidad meets Cuba meets Africa:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zqIzmusufIw

Naturally this all only works because those ethnic instruments can align themselves with western tuning. So it's still really American music absorbing other cultures, rather than a true 2-way (or 3- or 4-way) meeting/sharing.

Finally, here's an example of fado, often known as "Portuguese blues"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lh9YHtZzHfk
- not too far from flamenco, but (enjoyably) more miserable!
What I like about Portuguese music is that weird looking mutant mandolin (fabulous sound!) is called a "guitarra"; while the instrument that actually looks like a guitar, they call a "viola". Go figure....
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Last edited by JonPR; 04-25-2015 at 12:35 PM.
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  #36  
Old 04-25-2015, 08:12 PM
NewGuitarist NewGuitarist is offline
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Thanks a lot y'all! I really appreciate your help.

Jon, really appreciate your efforts and generosity. Those videos, wow, what a pleasure to hear and watch. That jazz oud one is just something special..

BTW, here's a couple of Lebanese (arabic) songs I'm familiar with, having lived in the middle east for quite some time. You might have heard such stuff before, but anyways, there's the ethnic scale plus the western harmony

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OlaplAypc2w

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=458nV2GRY1w

Let me know if you actually liked them, I'd be really interested to know..

Last edited by NewGuitarist; 04-25-2015 at 08:24 PM.
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  #37  
Old 04-26-2015, 06:43 PM
gratay gratay is offline
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To get a thorough understanding of how chords are built I think to go back to basics is the best way ...like start with

Triads,.. diatonically all keys, all inversions, all string groups close and open voicings starting each key with whatever the lowest chord you can play on the neck for each key and string group.

Do the same thing for Melodic Minor and Harmonic Minor.

Then move onto 4 note chords and do the same..Use standards and play-a-longs to voice lead through the changes

This has and will keep me busy for years.

Last edited by gratay; 04-26-2015 at 06:48 PM. Reason: add
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  #38  
Old 04-27-2015, 06:55 AM
Bikewer Bikewer is offline
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We used to have a number of friends that were into the local belly-dance scene and they often danced to a group styling themselves as The Nile Band.
True "world" music....There was an Egyptian, a Saudi, a fellow from Yemen, and an American guitarist...They played typical Middle-Eastern material with a lot of the lead work carried by the Oud player.
I remember them complaining about a lot of "American" music in that we "left the melody out"....Referring to all the semitones that they considered essential.
I don't know how the guitar player got along.....
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  #39  
Old 04-27-2015, 07:08 AM
JonPR JonPR is offline
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Originally Posted by Bikewer View Post
I remember them complaining about a lot of "American" music in that we "left the melody out"....Referring to all the semitones that they considered essential.
Do you mean the microtones? The pitches between the semitones? (Missing out semitones would be wrong to American ears, never mind others .)
I like how fundamental they regard those elements, that we'd see (and perhaps hear) as "decoration" - distinctive for the sound of that culture of course, but somehow "not part of the scale" (whatever we suppose that might be!).
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  #40  
Old 04-27-2015, 07:30 AM
JonPR JonPR is offline
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Originally Posted by NewGuitarist View Post
Thanks a lot y'all! I really appreciate your help.

Jon, really appreciate your efforts and generosity. Those videos, wow, what a pleasure to hear and watch. That jazz oud one is just something special..

BTW, here's a couple of Lebanese (arabic) songs I'm familiar with, having lived in the middle east for quite some time. You might have heard such stuff before, but anyways, there's the ethnic scale plus the western harmony

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OlaplAypc2w

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=458nV2GRY1w

Let me know if you actually liked them, I'd be really interested to know..
Sounds to me like pure western harmony, with only the vocal style retaining any Arabic influence.
IOW, until she comes in, it sounds 100% western to me.
Of course, it's interesting that she can superimpose her style on to western harmonies successfully, but I can't say the music as a whole is my taste. The harmonies are very bland and traditional, very much mainstream pop/commercial. It makes it sound sentimental, whereas I imagine the native music of whatever culture she comes from is a lot more vibrant and grittier.

Naturally, I'd still be appreciating that music as an outsider - not really understanding what it would mean to natives of that culture - but I have to say I'm often disappointed when singers or musicians like that decide to crossover and work with western styles; it often ends up veering towards what sounds like muzak to our ears.
In a way it's understandable. If I was going to work with (say) Arabic musicians, I might prefer to begin with the simplest examples of their music, rather than dive into the depths as a novice. I would then expect very similar criticism of my efforts from the native music fans - "he's going for that bland popular (Arabic) stuff! Why doesn't he stick with his own blues, jazz or rock'n'roll! We like that much better!"

IOW, while music in general certainly benefits from cross-fertilization from other cultures, there's always a limit beyond which neither side can go, simply because their life experiences are different. I love raga, but I will never fully understand it like the average Indian does, never mind an Indian aficionado of raga. Most cross-cultural mixes seem to end up mixing the blandest, least offensive elements of each culture - because it really can't be any other way; at least for the average popular musician in each culture.

The exceptions would be in spheres such as (avant garde) classical or jazz (and the equivalents in other cultures), where musicians are more highly trained in nuance, more receptive to the weird, and maybe even educated to some degree in the theory of other cultures.

It's the same as speakers of different languages meeting. The average people on each side will gravitate towards a simple pidgin that lets them communicate the essentials. Those with more experience or education in the other culture, or simply more awareness of how language in general works, will be able to have far more productive meetings, sharing more ideas.
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  #41  
Old 04-27-2015, 05:00 PM
NewGuitarist NewGuitarist is offline
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Point taken Jon and I totally agree with you

Quote:
Of course, it's interesting that she can superimpose her style on to western harmonies successfully, but I can't say the music as a whole is my taste. The harmonies are very bland and traditional, very much mainstream pop/commercial. It makes it sound sentimental, whereas I imagine the native music of whatever culture she comes from is a lot more vibrant and grittier
The crossover thing is only some of her music, I put it here to give an example of western harmony used in other musical cultures. Of course she has LOTS of native songs, to do her justice. Try this one maybe, is this what you mean by grittier and more vibrant?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=km60vuvFUiE&hd=1

But I would agree that for some her crossover stuff would still be an acquired taste, but about everyone over there loves her songs and she's a legendary singer to them. (if you asked me, I dig her voice and find it rather relaxing)
It even became a habit that people would wake up in the morning and listen to her songs (many radio stations there would play her songs every single morning for like an hour maybe or so) before they're off to school, work or whatever..


Quote:
In a way it's understandable. If I was going to work with (say) Arabic musicians, I might prefer to begin with the simplest examples of their music, rather than dive into the depths as a novice. I would then expect very similar criticism of my efforts from the native music fans - "he's going for that bland popular (Arabic) stuff! Why doesn't he stick with his own blues, jazz or rock'n'roll! We like that much better!"
Would you still expect to be criticized if you were to put in the effort and the time needed to dive more into their musics and be able to actually play or even compose authentic stuff (and I would believe you can )?


Quote:
The exceptions would be in spheres such as (avant garde) classical or jazz (and the equivalents in other cultures), where musicians are more highly trained in nuance, more receptive to the weird, and maybe even educated to some degree in the theory of other cultures.
May I add "some metal" to that list?

Last edited by NewGuitarist; 04-27-2015 at 08:45 PM.
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  #42  
Old 04-28-2015, 04:59 AM
JonPR JonPR is offline
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Would you still expect to be criticized if you were to put in the effort and the time needed to dive more into their musics and be able to actually play or even compose authentic stuff (and I would believe you can )?
I would expect to be accorded due respect in that case. But to actually compose anything authentic would take years, maybe decades of immersion in the music. (Your confidence in my skills is flattering but misplaced!)

Remember we in the west have been immersed in western music since childhood. It's in our blood - a "mother tongue" at least - even before we think of becoming musicians ourselves. We can never get to that point with any foreign culture - although of course we can be admired and respected for trying, out of an honest love for the music rather than any cheap desire to add some ethnic "spice" to our own music. (In the way that Ravi Shankar admired George Harrison for his true commitment to learning sitar as more than just a cool gimmick.)
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May I add "some metal" to that list?
Not from what I know (and have heard) of metal!
But then I guess don't know a whole lot. It seems to me like a narrow subgenre of rock, rather than a wide open culture in its own right. (Nothing wrong with narrow subgenres, but the very narrowing of the parameters makes it harder to break out into anything else.)
Metal - like many kinds of heavy rock - strikes me as a conservative form, not rebellious in any way, or much interested in musical challenge. If it pushes boundaries, it does so totally within the Rock genre.
But I'd better shut up before I get flamed....
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  #43  
Old 04-28-2015, 07:48 AM
815C 815C is offline
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Hi everyone!

Got a question about jazz theory. I'm still a very beginner jazz player, so don't get fooled by my question. In fact you'd tell right away that i'm still a noob
But anyway, I'm just curious.. how much is there to learn about jazz theory (same as music theroy?).

Of course, I understand that learning more theory wont necessarily make me a better jazzer nor do I need to learn much theory now that I'm just starting out.. but the reason I ask, I heard once that it takes a lifetime, or two maybe, to go through everything related to jazz theory and jazz harmony, so I thought I'd ask you the experts here to give me an idea just what makes this concept so huge..

My impression, I know there's the scales and modes.. and you'd need to know how to build your chords..and what scale goes with this or that chord progression..etc.
Please tell me how on earth does that sort of knowledge take decades to learn about? Takes a long time, granted but two lifetimes as I've been told once.. good grief! Am I missing something here?!

I'm really confused, could you help me out good people!

Thanks a lot!
Yeah, should only take a few weeks to master all that. Let us know how it goes!
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  #44  
Old 04-28-2015, 10:08 AM
NewGuitarist NewGuitarist is offline
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Originally Posted by 815C
Yeah, should only take a few weeks to master all that. Let us know how it goes!
lol, someone had to say it I guess
Well in that case, I might consider giving it a go!


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Originally Posted by JonPR
Not from what I know (and have heard) of metal!
But then I guess don't know a whole lot. It seems to me like a narrow subgenre of rock, rather than a wide open culture in its own right. (Nothing wrong with narrow subgenres, but the very narrowing of the parameters makes it harder to break out into anything else.)
Metal - like many kinds of heavy rock - strikes me as a conservative form, not rebellious in any way, or much interested in musical challenge. If it pushes boundaries, it does so totally within the Rock genre.
Interesting perspective on metal music.

Me.. I don't see heavy metal (or "metal" as most people would call it) as a subgenre of rock at all!! Might started off like that, but its just a different music to me. In fact, I see "rock" as a narrow genre when compared to "metal"!
Might be due to me listening to different ( or maybe more ) metal stuff from those that you have heard, but man I find that Metal as a genre is so wide open (certainly not as jazz though, but a lot more open that you might imagine). In fact, there's a ton of metal subgenres. I don't dig a lot of them honestly nor listen to that many metal bands I have to say.
But I have not found much stuff just as interesting as metal in whatever music came after it..

BTW, You didn't tell me if the last song I posted sounded grittier than the previous ones just so I know I got you right..

Last edited by NewGuitarist; 04-28-2015 at 10:16 AM.
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  #45  
Old 04-28-2015, 11:23 AM
JonPR JonPR is offline
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lol, someone had to say it I guess
Well in that case, I might consider giving it a go!




Interesting perspective on metal music.

Me.. I don't see heavy metal (or "metal" as most people would call it) as a subgenre of rock at all!! Might started off like that, but its just a different music to me. In fact, I see "rock" as a narrow genre when compared to "metal"!
I guess it depends which end of the telescope you're at...

From my end, "rock" is a genre of music that began in the mid 1950s, but was only fully formed in the late 1960s. It was pretty revolutionary then, in its combination of blues, country, soul, folk (and just a little jazz), pumped through the biggest amps they could find - a genuinely new musical form. Since then it's kind of settled into a popular conservative formula, but with plenty of subgenre offshoots.
Basically, for me, if it's got electric guitars (distorted to varying levels), bass and drums, mostly played by young white musicians, maybe the occasional keyboard, with fairly limited harmony (power chords or triads) - and is mostly LOUD: it's "rock". The rest is pigeon-holing into subgenres (heavy, prog, punk, metal, grunge, indie, AOR, etc).
Are you saying "metal" can't be described in those broad terms? I'd genuinely like to hear something that you think doesn't fit that. Surprise me!
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Originally Posted by NewGuitarist View Post
BTW, You didn't tell me if the last song I posted sounded grittier than the previous ones just so I know I got you right..
Gotta dash I'll get back to you on that.
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