The Acoustic Guitar Forum

Go Back   The Acoustic Guitar Forum > General Acoustic Guitar and Amplification Discussion > PLAY and Write

Reply
 
Thread Tools
  #31  
Old 04-11-2015, 06:25 PM
Toby Walker's Avatar
Toby Walker Toby Walker is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Stationary home in NJ. Mobile home on any given highway.
Posts: 9,083
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by polarred21 View Post
OKAY, so I can't work my way up the fret board yet and this interests me. Added some fret marks to this Toby's first post pick for needed reference and tested this method. I checked my open string tuning and 12th fret tuning twice and all is good.

All feedback is welcomed.....did I do it right?



Yes, that's it. Remember, the important thing is not playing these chords but rather understanding how they move up the neck... in different keys. The REAL benefits are the things that are attached to them such as scales, licks and of course other chord shapes.
__________________
Fingerpicking Acoustic Blues/Rag/Folk/Slide Lessons
https://www.tobywalkerslessons.com/
Reply With Quote
  #32  
Old 04-19-2015, 01:20 PM
edcag edcag is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Posts: 12
Default

I'm just a long-time noodler, hardly an expert - but…
CAGED seems like a useful way of "seeing" the fretboard. It surely describes something that is there when you choose to view the fretboard from that perspective and it's easy once it clicks. No doubt there are other patterns/other perspectives and if I were a better player (with more knowledge of alternate perspectives) I might better understand the limitations of "seeing" the fretboard in the CAGED way. (One limitation that even I can immediately see is that CAGED, as it's usually presented, tends to ignore minor chords and scales - no small omission. Wouldn't it be great if there was a "caged" system, too?)

Although it seems to be a useful teaching tool, I think it has some significant drawbacks. The most obvious drawback, to me, is evidenced earlier in this thread. There is a significant disconnect between the layout of the chord shapes and the scale patterns. By this I mean - why on earth would the third chord shape in CAGED, (G), be associated with the fifth scale pattern? It's totally counter-intuitive, imho. The pattern of chord shapes should (and does) align with the pattern of scale shapes - but I would call that system by another name, not CAGED. And it seems counter-intuitive to name the chord shapes and number the scale patterns. I think a better teaching method would align them in a more consistent manner.

So, really this was just a long way of asking - can anyone recommend a resource(s) for the method I'm describing.
Thanks.
ed
Reply With Quote
  #33  
Old 04-19-2015, 02:01 PM
Doug Young's Avatar
Doug Young Doug Young is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Mountain View, CA
Posts: 9,879
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by edcag View Post
. (One limitation that even I can immediately see is that CAGED, as it's usually presented, tends to ignore minor chords and scales - no small omission. Wouldn't it be great if there was a "caged" system, too?)
Easily created. There's no magic here. a full 6-string version may be hard to finger, but basically, it would be:

Cm: 33101x (the top string should be -1, which you can do when you play higher - tho it's an unplayable shape)
Am: x02210
Gm: 310033
Em: 022000
Dm: x00231 (The 6th string X should be -2, again, more visualizable when you use barre versions - but also unplayable)

Quote:
There is a significant disconnect between the layout of the chord shapes and the scale patterns. By this I mean - why on earth would the third chord shape in CAGED, (G), be associated with the fifth scale pattern?
I'm not sure who coined the "fifth scale pattern" name or even what you mean for sure, but there are so many ways to explain the fretboard, I think you're probably mixing two different systems. Is is "fifth scale" naming coming from someone's CAGED instruction? If so, I agree, it's confusing. I'd call the scale pattern that falls around the G chord shape the "Scale pattern that falls around the G chord shape". Or maybe shorten it to something like the "G shape pattern", or whatever. But these things are just names. Some people call "Robert" Bob, or Rob, or Bert, or Bobby. All very confusing...
Reply With Quote
  #34  
Old 04-19-2015, 04:28 PM
D. Shelton D. Shelton is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Chi Wah Wah Galaxy
Posts: 6,347
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Toby Walker View Post
In response to another thread I thought I'd take a stab at trying to explain this. Learning the CAGED system can be an invaluable tool for understanding how the fretboard works. Once learned, one can apply all kinds of things to it including useful licks which can be easily transposed to any other key. Think of this as the ultimate GPS device. You can use it to go anywhere.

We'll use this diagram, which I include in one of my lesson packs called the 'E Pack.'

[IMG][/IMG]



I know... it’s a complicated system but as I said before it is WELL WORTH LEARNING.
The CAGED system isn’t the only way to skin a cat, but it certainly will save you LOADS of time in the long run.
I learned it all back when I started playing again at age 40. Along with reading and writing , it's the most useful 'thing' I've ever learned . I gave my first 'music lesson' today , and I jumped right into the C-Form and the C-Ionian scale .

Oh yeah, that's a fantastic chart ! I'll use it on my subjects (of music-theory torture) next time.

Last edited by D. Shelton; 04-19-2015 at 09:23 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #35  
Old 04-20-2015, 04:41 AM
D. Shelton D. Shelton is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Chi Wah Wah Galaxy
Posts: 6,347
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pualee View Post
In addition to the 5 "chord" shapes, which all connect on the root of each previous shape, you can learn 5 "scale" shapes... for either pentatonic or diatonic.

It opens up a world of freedom when playing. There are a lot of 'patterns' on a guitar in standard tuning, but I have not yet found one that doesn't in some way use the caged layout. I learned caged from "Fretboard Logic" (and a teacher) which really seems to take caged a bit farther than most free internet resources... it adds some "lead" patterns based on traversing three octaves through the caged shapes.

Once you start using all the associated patterns, you never get lost on the fretboard.
That's the beauty of it. The system is nothing more or less than graphic representations of how music works on a guitar neck .

The same approach can be used to create forms for Harmonic Minor and Melodic Minor tonal systems (basic CAGED being about Diatonic major tonal system) , and I scratched the surface of Harmonic Minor forms to work on one tune.

One big thing I remember from my days taking 'guitar lessons ' and learning this stuff was the overview that , from the 5 main CAGED forms (DMS Forms, we called them) you could derive four other important forms, of decreasing complexity . 1) Diatonic Scales (and we worked in the context of modal scales . 2) Pentatonic scales . 3) Arpeggios . 4) Chords . (major and minor on all .

I remember learing piece by piece over the course of a couple of years (or a year; I don't remember exactly) , and how it all seemed like a big puzzle that
wasn't giving me a big picture . But at some point it reached critical mass, and big chunks of puzzle came together . Very nice view from there !. I still need to memorize the dang pentatonic foprms though ; just never got around to it
Reply With Quote
  #36  
Old 04-20-2015, 07:02 AM
stanron stanron is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Posts: 2,428
Default

Toby's diagram is a nice clear way of demonstrating the CAGED skeleton. You can flesh this out in many ways. Toby mentions licks. Another way could be to take a specific tune, lets say 'You are my sunshine', and find how that tune sits on the open C chord shape. Strum the chord first and then find the notes of the tune in that key. Once you've done that find how it sits on the open A shape. Then do the same on the open G, E and D shapes. (Do you like cryptic clues? Try 5 1 2 3 3)

Another way to flesh it out is with the three chord trick. Around the C chord you add F and G. Around the A chord you add D and E. If you are going to get anywhere with CAGED you should know the three chord trick around all five shapes. Well as you use these five shapes up the neck each shape has its own three chord trick related shapes.

In an earlier thread someone mentioned minor chords. If you can do the three chord trick you should also be able to do the relative minor. For C it's Am, for A it's F#m and for G it's Em and so on. Each of the five shapes has it's relative minor in it's relative position.

And here's the biggie. All the chords shown in Toby's diagram are C chords. Although the shapes on the right are labelled C, A, G, E and D on the left they are all different ways of playing a C chord. If you do the three chord trick on those shapes you will be adding Fs and Gs to all those C chords. If you add the relative minors to those shapes they will all be A minors.

If you want to change key you move the whole pattern up or down the fretboard. If you move it up the fretboard, stuff that disappears past the 12th fret reappears at the nut and if you move it down the fretboard stuff that disappears past the nut reappears at the 12th fret. The whole thing is circular.

It's worth stating that above all else CAGED is a conceptual tool. No one is expecting you to play all those shapes as barre chords all the time. It's a framework that allows you to use the knowledge you already have of stuff you do around open chords and apply it to the whole fretboard.
Reply With Quote
  #37  
Old 04-22-2015, 06:55 PM
TBman's Avatar
TBman TBman is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: New Jersey
Posts: 35,829
Default

How do dominate 7ths fit in this? (E7, A7, etc). Other things that would be helpful would be:

What notes NOT to play in the key of X
What chords NOT to play in the key of X

I think the lists of what not to play would be shorter than what you could play. Also, how do diminished and "sus" chords fit into CAGED?
__________________
Barry

Sad Moments {Marianne Vedral cover}:


My SoundCloud page

Some steel strings, some nylon.
Reply With Quote
  #38  
Old 04-22-2015, 09:43 PM
Doug Young's Avatar
Doug Young Doug Young is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Mountain View, CA
Posts: 9,879
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by TBman View Post
How do dominate 7ths fit in this? (E7, A7, etc). Other things that would be helpful would be:

What notes NOT to play in the key of X
What chords NOT to play in the key of X

I think the lists of what not to play would be shorter than what you could play. Also, how do diminished and "sus" chords fit into CAGED?
CAGED helps you visualize the location of the notes of a triad. You can always find other tones (7th, 6th, etc) and "see" it in relation to the triad shape. For example, a C in 1st pos is:

332010

C7 is

332310

Now if you know, from CAGED, that you can play, say, an F chord using the C shape, as:

887565

Then there's also an F7:

887865

The other questions are way beyond CAGED. There's really no firm answer to what notes not to play or what chords not to play. You can stay diatonic, firmly in a key, and therefore say, in the key of C, you can play C, D, E, F, G, A, B and you can play chords C, Dm, Em, F, G, Am, Bdim. So one answer is "don't play what's left". For example, in the key of C, that would exclude C#, D#, F#, G#, A#, and a whole slew of chords.

But really, there so many exceptions to this that it would take a theory book to explain. You can play any note you like, if it makes sense musically, and you can find plenty of tunes in the key of C that use the "don't play" notes. You can "borrow" chords from other keys, if it makes sense musically. Simple folk tunes tend to stay in the same key, but more complex music may modulate between keys all over the place. Some music, like lots of rock music, is blues based, and may not conform to western diatonic harmony rules.

Music isn't really a set of rules. Theory is a way of explaining what people do, not what they have to do. You can't really make music by following patterns and rules. You make up melodies because they sound good. Then someone can try to explain what you did. Say you play a C#/Db over a C chord. No problem, that's a b9 sound, perfectly acceptable if it sounds right in the context in which you use it. D#/Eb? No problem, that's a #9, the sound of the "Hendrix chord". And so on. (Both of these usually sound best over a 7th chord, but ignore that for the moment) Play an D7 chord in the key of C? No problem, that's called a secondary dominant. It's just something that sounds right if you use it right, so people give it a fancy name.
Reply With Quote
  #39  
Old 04-23-2015, 02:50 AM
Ray1981 Ray1981 is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2014
Location: Brazil
Posts: 55
Default Very very nice

Hey all,

I have read this post and saw a lot of question regarding what about Minor well here is a link were the CAGED (5 position system) is written down in:

Major
Melodic Minor
Harmonic Minor
Natural Minor
Maj Pentatonic
Min Pentatonic
Blues scale

It is in one key but as mentioned before you can shift everythingyou just need to remember where the Root is of a certain position:

http://www.pbguitarstudio.com//stude...POS_SYSTEM.pdf

On youtube is a free video about this where it is all explained im sure this will help you guys together with all the information you get here from the persons who tried to explain it inthis thread.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Phcxx_-L-_c

After this there are people who go the the 3 NPS (3 notes per string) system or 7 position etc etc. Im not there yet I dont even know all the scales in the 5 Postitions. But on daily base i go thru this document to remember it.

Ohw before i forget there are even written out the arpeggios.

I think also i should mention that this whole document has been written down by Pebber Brown, as well a great teacher IMHO
__________________
Taylor 414CE LTD (ES2)
Taylor GA Cocobolo FLTD 2011 (ES2)
Taylor DN-3

https://soundcloud.com/ray-gilbers

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCgu...WmLrAGQ/videos
Reply With Quote
  #40  
Old 04-23-2015, 02:57 AM
JonPR JonPR is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Posts: 6,450
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by TBman View Post
How do dominate 7ths fit in this? (E7, A7, etc).
Exactly the same way. You know how to play an open E7 shape, yes?
Move it up one fret (replace the nut with index), you've got F7. Two frets, you've got F#7. Etc
OK, when it comes to shapes like G7, you maybe can't play the whole shape as a movable shape, but you only need to picture it, and play parts of it.
(With Doug's C7 shape, all you need is the middle 4 strings, and mute the outer two. X8786X makes a perfectly good F7 chord.
Quote:
Originally Posted by TBman View Post
Other things that would be helpful would be:

What notes NOT to play in the key of X
What chords NOT to play in the key of X

I think the lists of what not to play would be shorter than what you could play.
You're right.
But CAGED is a "guitar technique" thing. What you're asking are "music theory" questions.
IOW, CAGED is a way of mapping music theory concepts on to the fretboard, it's not an answer to "what notes go with what", or "what chords go in this key".
Quote:
Originally Posted by TBman View Post
Also, how do diminished and "sus" chords fit into CAGED?
Well, diminished chords don't, because their shapes are quite different from the five open majors (and the three open minors).
But that doesn't diminish (oops! ) the usefulness of CAGED. It's not hard to learn the dim shapes (dim7 and m7b5, two main shapes for each) and understand where to place the roots on the neck to get all the different ones.

Sus chords are more closely related to the major shapes (and indeed the minors), in that they just replace the 3rd of the chord with the 4th (1 fret above the 3rd in a major chord, 2 frets above for a minor chord). If you don't know which note in the chord shape is the 3rd, you're at a serious disadvantage anyway - and CAGED won't rescue you.

CAGED is not a universal panacea, an answer to everything; it's only a fretboard mapping system. So its usefulness depends on how much information you already have to map! (The better you know chords and scales in open position, the easier it is to transfer them up the neck.)

I.e., if you know how the major scales of those five keys (C A G E D) fit around those chords in open position - and you should - then it's easy to convert those scales along with the shapes, into movable patterns.
If you don't know the open position major scales, learn them now! (Tip: the major scale patterns for F and Bb are more useful as movable patterns than those for E and A. The most common major scale box pattern, that fits a movable "E" shape, is actually the same as F major in open position.)

BTW, you don't need (so much) to learn actual note names. Just how scales fit around the chord shapes. Eg, if you take the open position C, F and G shapes, those chords contain all the notes of the key (C major); they are each subsets of the scale pattern, if you like. Any notes they don't contain (any frets between 0-3 on any strings which are not used,) are out of key.
So, to improvise on the C chord, you use the notes (a) in that chord shape, and (b) in the other chord shapes. Likewise when on the F chord, use the notes in that shape first and add the notes in the other shapes. That's how you (a) stay "in key", and (b) make your solo fit the chords (by prioritizing the notes in the chord you're on, with the other chord tones secondary).

What CAGED does is allow you to transfer that knowledge up the neck without having to know any of the notes you're playing!
Eg, if you want (for some bizarre reason) to play a solo in the key of F# major, you just shove your open position C F and G chords (and the scale pattern the chord shapes make) 6 frets up, and away you go. You don't know the note names, but it's impossible to play a wrong note!

But - as well as letting you play in any key you want by using the same shapes in different places - what CAGED also does (and is if anything more useful) is show you how to play in different keys in the same position. Wherever you are on the neck, all 12 major chords can be played within a 4 fret space (maybe stretching up or down an additional fret now and then, but also sometimes offering two alternative shapes within that position).
__________________
"There is a crack in everything. That's how the light gets in." - Leonard Cohen.
Reply With Quote
  #41  
Old 04-23-2015, 03:26 AM
D. Shelton D. Shelton is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Chi Wah Wah Galaxy
Posts: 6,347
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ray1981 View Post
Hey all,

I have read this post and saw a lot of question regarding what about Minor well here is a link were the CAGED (5 position system) is written down in:

Major
Melodic Minor
Harmonic Minor
Natural Minor
Maj Pentatonic
Min Pentatonic
Blues scale

It is in one key but as mentioned before you can shift everythingyou just need to remember where the Root is of a certain position:

http://www.pbguitarstudio.com//stude...POS_SYSTEM.pdf



Ohw before i forget there are even written out the arpeggios.

I think also i should mention that this whole document has been written down by Pebber Brown, as well a great teacher IMHO
Good stuff ! My minor "but" is that I would find it slightly more useful (less distracting) without the fingering guides , and with fret numbers . Otherwise, a nice piece of the puzzle .
Reply With Quote
  #42  
Old 04-23-2015, 03:49 AM
LeftArm LeftArm is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: East Sussex
Posts: 351
Default

Larry Mcdonald has a barre chord chart that shows the fancy chords.
It's useful but only covers the E and A shapes though.
Larry McDonalds fancy Barre chord chart
http://www.larrymcdonaldguitar.com
Reply With Quote
  #43  
Old 04-23-2015, 04:01 AM
stanron stanron is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Posts: 2,428
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by TBman View Post
How do dominate 7ths fit in this? (E7, A7, etc). Other things that would be helpful would be:

What notes NOT to play in the key of X
What chords NOT to play in the key of X

I think the lists of what not to play would be shorter than what you could play. Also, how do diminished and "sus" chords fit into CAGED?
If you already know the answers to these questions around the open or nut chords C, A, G , E and D then you just use that information around the CAGED skeleton to go up and down the neck. If you don't know the answers then CAGED won't be much help.
Reply With Quote
  #44  
Old 04-23-2015, 04:09 AM
Ray1981 Ray1981 is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2014
Location: Brazil
Posts: 55
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by D. Shelton View Post
Good stuff ! My minor "but" is that I would find it slightly more useful (less distracting) without the fingering guides , and with fret numbers . Otherwise, a nice piece of the puzzle .
Yes I get you although for completely beginners it can be usefull. And you can always modify it with some pdf program probably. I only watch to the fingerings for the arpeggios now they are usefull for me. But im not a real advanced player I only play for about 4 years.
__________________
Taylor 414CE LTD (ES2)
Taylor GA Cocobolo FLTD 2011 (ES2)
Taylor DN-3

https://soundcloud.com/ray-gilbers

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCgu...WmLrAGQ/videos
Reply With Quote
  #45  
Old 04-23-2015, 05:24 AM
JonPR JonPR is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Posts: 6,450
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by stanron View Post
If you already know the answers to these questions around the open or nut chords C, A, G , E and D then you just use that information around the CAGED skeleton to go up and down the neck. If you don't know the answers then CAGED won't be much help.
Precisely!
__________________
"There is a crack in everything. That's how the light gets in." - Leonard Cohen.
Reply With Quote
Reply

  The Acoustic Guitar Forum > General Acoustic Guitar and Amplification Discussion > PLAY and Write

Thread Tools





All times are GMT -6. The time now is 12:58 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
Copyright ©2000 - 2022, The Acoustic Guitar Forum
vB Ad Management by =RedTyger=