OnSong and diminished chords

[mtsusean]

coming up short on Google,

I've put a diminished chord in a song in OnSong, but it won't display the chord in the chord chart (fingering)

so for example, F#dim doesn't display the chord

is there another way to do this? I am supposing that you can't put the degree circle behind the chord either, as I'm figuring that you are limited to keyboard input only, not special characters

another curious thing is, it will display an F chord, but not F#. I guess it has its limitations

[JonPR]

If you want F#dim, try F#dim7. (Nobody plays dim triads)

BTW, online chord finders are mostly garbage too. This is the best I've found so far: this is the chord you want:
http://www.guitar-chords.org.uk/f-sh...ed7-chord.html

[mtsusean]

thanks. That worked.

F#dim7 it is.

I took the F#dim out of a Hal Leonard chord book. Now I know.

[mc1]

Originally Posted by JonPR

If you want F#dim, try F#dim7. (Nobody plays dim triads)

BTW, online chord finders are mostly garbage too. This is the best I've found so far: this is the chord you want:
http://www.guitar-chords.org.uk/f-sh...ed7-chord.html

onsong is an app for ipad/iphone to help create and manage chord charts.

http://www.onsongapp.com/

mtsusean, i don't use onsong, but there must be a way to enter F#dim7. i searched a bit but didn't find anything either. their help section os kind of limited as well.

edit: i see you got it worked out.

[ljguitar]

Originally Posted by mtsusean

…I am supposing that you can't put the degree circle behind the chord either…

Hi mtsusean…

Have you tried?

You can always resort to using a pdf of that specific chart, and OnSong can display it. It just cannot alter the font or key.

[JonPR]

Originally Posted by mtsusean

thanks. That worked.

F#dim7 it is.

I took the F#dim out of a Hal Leonard chord book. Now I know.

Just some extra info...

There are two kinds of diminished chord. Both are built on a dim triad, but have two different kinds of 7th:

1 b3 b5 b7 = half-diminished, or m7b5, symbol ø (has one diminished interval, the 5th)
1 b3 b5 bb7 = full diminished, or dim7, symbol ° or °7 (has two diminished intervals, 5th and 7th)

m7b5 comes from the 7th degree of the major scale, and 2nd degree of the minor scale (eg B D F A from C major or A minor)
dim7 comes from the 7th degree of the harmonic minor scale only (B D F Ab from C minor)

When you see a plain "dim" chord symbol, always assume it means a dim7. And any shape you find for a dim7 can be played 3 frets higher or lower, it will be the same chord, because it will contain the same 4 notes (in a different order).

m7b5 chords are rare, except in jazz where they are extremely common. However they're not used as vii in major keys, but as ii in minor keys.
So Bm7b5 - which comes from the C major scale - will be used in the key of A minor, followed by E7 (and then Am, usually).

dim7s are also common in jazz - less common in rock - and mostly used as vii chords. IOW, one note of the chord (not necessarily its bass note) will be a half-step below the root of the next chord.
So Bdim7 will probably lead to Cm or C major (even though it's out of key in C major). But because Bdim7 is the same set of notes as Ddim7, Fdim7 and G#dim7, it can also lead to Eb/Ebm, Gb/F#m, or A/Am.
(This is not the only use of dim7s, and you can find them in all kinds of places as chromatic transition chords.)

Many people regard dim7s as rootless 7b9 chords. IOW, they'll think of Bdim7 as G7b9 without the G. Both chords do the same job (resolving to C or Cm).
You can also see m7b5s as dom9s without the root. Bm7b5 = G9 with no G. But Bm7b5 (as used in jazz) works differently from G9, so they're not interchangeable in the same way (unless you see Bm7b5 leading to C).

[ShawnH]

Originally Posted by JonPR

Just some extra info...

There are two kinds of diminished chord. Both are built on a dim triad, but have two different kinds of 7th:

1 b3 b5 b7 = half-diminished, or m7b5, symbol ø (has one diminished interval, the 5th)
1 b3 b5 bb7 = full diminished, or dim7, symbol ° or °7 (has two diminished intervals, 5th and 7th)

m7b5 comes from the 7th degree of the major scale, and 2nd degree of the minor scale (eg B D F A from C major or A minor)
dim7 comes from the 7th degree of the harmonic minor scale only (B D F Ab from C minor)

When you see a plain "dim" chord symbol, always assume it means a dim7. And any shape you find for a dim7 can be played 3 frets higher or lower, it will be the same chord, because it will contain the same 4 notes (in a different order).

m7b5 chords are rare, except in jazz where they are extremely common. However they're not used as vii in major keys, but as ii in minor keys.
So Bm7b5 - which comes from the C major scale - will be used in the key of A minor, followed by E7 (and then Am, usually).

dim7s are also common in jazz - less common in rock - and mostly used as vii chords. IOW, one note of the chord (not necessarily its bass note) will be a half-step below the root of the next chord.
So Bdim7 will probably lead to Cm or C major (even though it's out of key in C major). But because Bdim7 is the same set of notes as Ddim7, Fdim7 and G#dim7, it can also lead to Eb/Ebm, Gb/F#m, or A/Am.
(This is not the only use of dim7s, and you can find them in all kinds of places as chromatic transition chords.)

Many people regard dim7s as rootless 7b9 chords. IOW, they'll think of Bdim7 as G7b9 without the G. Both chords do the same job (resolving to C or Cm).
You can also see m7b5s as dom9s without the root. Bm7b5 = G9 with no G. But Bm7b5 (as used in jazz) works differently from G9, so they're not interchangeable in the same way (unless you see Bm7b5 leading to C).

Really great info as always Jon. I've just started exploring dim7 chords through learning "Deep River Blues" and "Beaumont Rag". Really nice sound and they spice things up - I think in both of those cases you would say more of a chromatic transition than anything functional. Some light bulbs have gone on regarding voice leading as well in learning and exploring these tunes - specifically the turnaround of Beaumont Rag.


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[JonPR]

Originally Posted by ShawnH

Really great info as always Jon. I've just started exploring dim7 chords through learning "Deep River Blues" and "Beaumont Rag". Really nice sound and they spice things up - I think in both of those cases you would say more of a chromatic transition than anything functional. Some light bulbs have gone on regarding voice leading as well in learning and exploring these tunes - specifically the turnaround of Beaumont Rag.


___________

Yes, there's a very common use of dim7s in bar 6 of a blues. Eg, in key of C, F#dim7 following F7 and leading back to C. I see it as part of an ascending bass line:
|F7 - - - |F#dim7 - - - |C/G - E/G#* - |A7 - - - |
|D7 - - - |G7 - - - |C...

(* or G#dim7 )

That F#dim7 could be described as a "common tone diminished", as it shares the C note with the following chord. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diminis..._seventh_chord

In old rag tunes (eg Blind Blake) you also hear Ab chords sometimes in bar 6, and Ab7 shares most notes with F#dim7.
Fm, meanwhile, is an opposite kind of transition chord, with a descending line back to the C: A-Ab-G.
So, Fm goes one way, F#dim7 goes another, and Ab7 is a kind of half-way choice (featuring both moves).
In some C minor blues, moreover, you'll sometimes get Ab7 (but not F#dim7) used in place of Fm7.