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  #46  
Old 10-19-2017, 03:24 AM
JonPR JonPR is offline
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Originally Posted by Hasbro View Post
Where can i find this johnpr book on jansch?
https://www.musicroom.com/product-de...nsch-songbook/

More info here:
https://bertjanschfoundation.org/pro...t-transcribed/

..and I can of course answer any other question you may have on it.

I should say there's one 2-star review on Amazon (UK), complaining merely that the tabs for most of these songs are already available elsewhere. That's true - although quality and accuracy are of course variable. Some of those available online are by members of our group, and it was my job to make sure these were correct, and tweak where necessary. And the whole lot were overseen by a consultant more experienced than me.
Obviously for a book authorized by the Foundation, set up as the best yet, we had to include his most popular tracks. We can guarantee that these are the most accurate you can find, because of the group approval system.
One of our group, btw, is Doug Kennedy, who was responsible for the only previous collection of Bert transcriptions compiled with the assistance of Bert himself (published in 1983, now out of print). Naturally, we used those as a prime reference, along with available videos of Bert playing.
And of course, we've provided performance tips - fingering etc - and background info, which you don't get with online tabs.

I'll admit there are a few which remain debatable, despite our best efforts, because no video is available (and the tunes are not in Doug's book), and there maybe a few equally good ways of playing the tune in question. Different members of our group may have had different opinions on how he did it, all are valid, but we had to go with one choice. In the end, of course, you can play it any way you want!

Oh yes - in terms of the topic, the guitar parts are in notation and tab, and there is notation for the vocals as well (and complete lyrics). This is a songbook, not just a bunch of tabs .
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Last edited by JonPR; 10-19-2017 at 03:56 AM.
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  #47  
Old 10-19-2017, 07:16 AM
Hasbro Hasbro is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JonPR View Post
https://www.musicroom.com/product-de...nsch-songbook/

More info here:
https://bertjanschfoundation.org/pro...t-transcribed/

..and I can of course answer any other question you may have on it.

I should say there's one 2-star review on Amazon (UK), complaining merely that the tabs for most of these songs are already available elsewhere. That's true - although quality and accuracy are of course variable. Some of those available online are by members of our group, and it was my job to make sure these were correct, and tweak where necessary. And the whole lot were overseen by a consultant more experienced than me.
Obviously for a book authorized by the Foundation, set up as the best yet, we had to include his most popular tracks. We can guarantee that these are the most accurate you can find, because of the group approval system.
One of our group, btw, is Doug Kennedy, who was responsible for the only previous collection of Bert transcriptions compiled with the assistance of Bert himself (published in 1983, now out of print). Naturally, we used those as a prime reference, along with available videos of Bert playing.
And of course, we've provided performance tips - fingering etc - and background info, which you don't get with online tabs.

I'll admit there are a few which remain debatable, despite our best efforts, because no video is available (and the tunes are not in Doug's book), and there maybe a few equally good ways of playing the tune in question. Different members of our group may have had different opinions on how he did it, all are valid, but we had to go with one choice. In the end, of course, you can play it any way you want!

Oh yes - in terms of the topic, the guitar parts are in notation and tab, and there is notation for the vocals as well (and complete lyrics). This is a songbook, not just a bunch of tabs .
Awesome, thanks!
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  #48  
Old 10-19-2017, 07:32 AM
JonPR JonPR is offline
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Originally Posted by Hasbro View Post
Awesome, thanks!
I'll add that where there are different ways of playing a particular piece or phrase, I've mostly mentioned them, sometimes supplying a bar or two of alternative tab.

With Blackwaterside in particular, because it's such an iconic piece, I went to some lengths exploring all the live versions. It turned out that the 1966 original (which is our prime reference recording) was more in the nature of a prototype. He continued tweaking it, and by 1973 (earliest live video version available) it had acquired the arrangement that he more or less stuck to from then on, which he clearly regarded as superior to the original. So in the book I've given all the differences from the 1966 version. In fact I suggested to the BJF that we use the later version as the main transcription, but it was felt that the Jack Orion version was the reference most people would be using.

With The First Time Ever I Saw Face, we did the reverse. In place of the 1966 instrumental version, we went for the 1973 vocal version - in this case we could point people to the Moonshine studio reference (used by Doug Kennedy in his book), as well as the 1982 Live At McCabe's, which matched. Again, the differences from the 1966 original seem like polishing, cleaning up a few rough edges, making it more comfortable (for him anyway!) to both play and sing.

One other later version is Needle of Death, where we chose the 1974 version over the 1965. Personally I prefer the 1965, but this was a committee decision - and it's worth mentioning that Bert himself never liked his debut album, regarding his singing in particular as sub-standard. So no doubt he himself preferred the 1974 arrangement.
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Last edited by JonPR; 10-19-2017 at 07:39 AM.
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  #49  
Old 10-19-2017, 12:41 PM
Hasbro Hasbro is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JonPR View Post
I'll add that where there are different ways of playing a particular piece or phrase, I've mostly mentioned them, sometimes supplying a bar or two of alternative tab.

With Blackwaterside in particular, because it's such an iconic piece, I went to some lengths exploring all the live versions. It turned out that the 1966 original (which is our prime reference recording) was more in the nature of a prototype. He continued tweaking it, and by 1973 (earliest live video version available) it had acquired the arrangement that he more or less stuck to from then on, which he clearly regarded as superior to the original. So in the book I've given all the differences from the 1966 version. In fact I suggested to the BJF that we use the later version as the main transcription, but it was felt that the Jack Orion version was the reference most people would be using.

With The First Time Ever I Saw Face, we did the reverse. In place of the 1966 instrumental version, we went for the 1973 vocal version - in this case we could point people to the Moonshine studio reference (used by Doug Kennedy in his book), as well as the 1982 Live At McCabe's, which matched. Again, the differences from the 1966 original seem like polishing, cleaning up a few rough edges, making it more comfortable (for him anyway!) to both play and sing.

One other later version is Needle of Death, where we chose the 1974 version over the 1965. Personally I prefer the 1965, but this was a committee decision - and it's worth mentioning that Bert himself never liked his debut album, regarding his singing in particular as sub-standard. So no doubt he himself preferred the 1974 arrangement.
Would you mind giving me a list of those songs on this book that are in dadgad or standard? I am trying to limit my alternate tunings because I get confused otherwise!
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  #50  
Old 10-19-2017, 04:33 PM
JonPR JonPR is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hasbro View Post
Would you mind giving me a list of those songs on this book that are in dadgad or standard? I am trying to limit my alternate tunings because I get confused otherwise!
DADGAD: Bird Song, First Time Ever I Saw Your Face.
Drop D: Blackwaterside, Reynardine, In the Bleak Midwinter, Crimson Moon, Soho, Orlando (duet)
EADGBE: All the rest! - Alice's Wonderland, Angie, Alman, Blues Run the Game, Birthday Blues, Bright New Year, Chambertin, Curragh of Kildare, Fresh as a Sweet Sunday Morning, Is It Real, Joint Control, Moonshine, Needle of Death, Peregrinations, Running from Home, Strolling down the Highway.
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  #51  
Old 10-20-2017, 04:48 AM
Howard Emerson Howard Emerson is offline
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Does the tab show rhythms?
Hi Jon,
I don't know that any tab ever shows rhythm, or that in its current state it could show rhythm.

The standard notation does show it.

I don't read or write tab, or standard notation for that matter, and I was never able to check the transcription for accuracy.

There are some youtube cover videos of Crossing Crystal Lake, and one in particular by Mike Wilkins, is done very nicely. He plays it on a McGill Super Ace nylon string.

I don't know if he played the tab exactly, or used it as a guide coupled with having the actual recording.

Best,
Howard
http://howardemerson.com
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  #52  
Old 10-20-2017, 05:33 AM
stanron stanron is offline
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Tab can show a time frame and where notes originate on this time frame. In some ways this is more suited to guitar music than the summing of note lengths used in notation. The summing of note lengths works well with monophonic instruments but presents problems with an instrument like guitar which is six monophonic instruments playing at the same time.

My experience is that although tab can show when notes start, many readers will not put in the effort to read it.
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  #53  
Old 10-20-2017, 05:51 AM
JonPR JonPR is offline
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Originally Posted by Howard Emerson View Post
Hi Jon,
I don't know that any tab ever shows rhythm, or that in its current state it could show rhythm.
Well, it can - there are two or three ways - but if it doesn't, how would someone play your tune if they'd never heard it? And if they couldn't read the notation?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Howard Emerson View Post
I don't read or write tab, or standard notation for that matter, and I was never able to check the transcription for accuracy.
Do you mean because you didn't see a proof beforehand, or because you couldn't read it? Either way, did it bother you? You trusted the publisher?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Howard Emerson View Post
There are some youtube cover videos of Crossing Crystal Lake, and one in particular by Mike Wilkins, is done very nicely. He plays it on a McGill Super Ace nylon string.

I don't know if he played the tab exactly, or used it as a guide coupled with having the actual recording.
I assume it's close enough for you though?
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  #54  
Old 10-20-2017, 06:12 AM
Howard Emerson Howard Emerson is offline
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Originally Posted by JonPR View Post
Well, it can - there are two or three ways - but if it doesn't, how would someone play your tune if they'd never heard it? And if they couldn't read the notation?
Do you mean because you didn't see a proof beforehand, or because you couldn't read it? Either way, did it bother you? You trusted the publisher?
I assume it's close enough for you though?
Hi Jon,
Good to hear that there's a tab version that shows rhythm for those people who prefer tab but who also can read standard. My assumption is that reading the beat comes with reading the notes in standard notation.

I have always been dyslexic, and reading music, or tab, was just never something that I beat myself up about not being able to do with any sort of proficiency. Of course the publisher sent a copy anyway, and you bet I trusted them: It's what they do. I just compose the stuff.

The fact that someone played the song very well without my direct help is proof enough that Mel Bay/Stephen Rekas did a good job.

Regards,
Howard Emerson
http://howardemerson.com
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  #55  
Old 10-20-2017, 06:40 AM
Gitfiddlemann Gitfiddlemann is offline
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Quote:
I was never able to check the transcription for accuracy.
Hi Howard,
I think it's pretty accurate, but I feel that "Crossing Crystal Lake" is a multi-layered composition that demands a good "listening" to, as well as "reading".
It was certainly helpful to have the notation/TAB for the piece, but it would have been difficult to play it without listening to your recording.
That, and this crucial information you provided in the liner notes, all of which is not evident at all from the either the notation or the TAB:
"The general feel of Crossing Crystal Lake is that of a sustained, but slightly muted half notes in the bass, with a fairly open sounding melody with many overlapping notes. I think you could say that it stresses beats 1 & 3 more than 2 & 4.
The ending is played almost out of time- very rubato or outatimo. There, the notation shows 4-2-0 as a pull-off, but you have to lead into it with a delayed hammer by letting the F# on the 4th string sustain through so that you don't have to pluck the 4th. It will already be ringing, so just hammer into it to start the ornament."

- Howard Emerson

I guess my point is that notation/TAB, no matter how comprehensive, often stills falls short of capturing all of the composer's intent, and without details like above, it's difficult to reproduce the piece in the manner in which it should be played, which is what touched or inspired you in the first place.
So, it can be a complex task depending on the piece. The more info, the better, short of having Howard himself teach it to you!
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  #56  
Old 10-20-2017, 07:10 AM
JonPR JonPR is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Howard Emerson View Post
Hi Jon,
Good to hear that there's a tab version that shows rhythm for those people who prefer tab but who also can read standard. My assumption is that reading the beat comes with reading the notes in standard notation.

I have always been dyslexic, and reading music, or tab, was just never something that I beat myself up about not being able to do with any sort of proficiency. Of course the publisher sent a copy anyway, and you bet I trusted them: It's what they do. I just compose the stuff.

The fact that someone played the song very well without my direct help is proof enough that Mel Bay/Stephen Rekas did a good job.
And no doubt your helpful description of the rhythm and feel (Andre quoted) helped!
There are similar descriptions in the performance notes in the Jansch book, especially where notation or tab (or both) might be ambiguous.

The following are the three ways I know of that tab can show rhythm:



That obviously depends both on sophisticated software and on the reader already being familiar with some notation conventions (dotted notes, flagged notes, grace notes, slurs to indicate hammer-ons or pull-offs, the "cut-time" time sig). Quite good for notation-literate, in that it could save the use of a separate notation stave - although they'd probably like to see rests and ties too (I removed those from the above, because a notation staff was included). But not much use for those who know nothing about notation!

The following ones are both text-based. The first used to be an option in Sibelius - you could export tab staves as ASCII text and it would appear as shown. Q = quarter note, E = 8th note, etc. You still need to know what the dot means (after Q). Of course, it's also proportional, so that may be enough to show timing (if not note length).

The second is a simple addition of asterisks to show the beats, and therefore where each note falls relative to the beat. One of the Jansch contributors used this system, which I like, and I originally had the idea of using it in the book, but it was vetoed by our notation consultant.
Code:
  4/4
   Q   H Q   Q.Q     Q.  H E E Q.Q
D|-----------------|-0---------------|
A|-------0---3-----|-----------3-----|
G|-----------------|-------0h4-------|
D|-----0-------0---|-----0-------0---|
A|-----------------|-----------------|
D|-5---------------|-5---------------|


D|-----------------|-0---------------|
A|-------0---3-----|-----------3-----|
G|-----------------|-------0h4-------|
D|-----0-------0---|-----0-------0---|
A|-----------------|-----------------|
D|-5---------------|-5---------------|
   *   *   *   *     *   *   *   *
All three show the same passage, by the way, which is from Anne Briggs' 'Go Your Way'.
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  #57  
Old 10-20-2017, 02:29 PM
Gitfiddlemann Gitfiddlemann is offline
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Quote:
There are similar descriptions in the performance notes in the Jansch book, especially where notation or tab (or both) might be ambiguous.
Performance notes are very helpful and under-appreciated. A book that includes them (where necessary) is a much more valuable resource imo.
Quote:
The following are the three ways I know of that tab can show rhythm...
Out of the three I much prefer the top one. I don't think I recall ever having seen dotted rhythms in TAB. Quite clever the way the TAB borrows from standard notation while staying true to tablature format.
Also, the top version is able to clearly show the grace note in the first measure, whereas it doesn't appear in the others.
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  #58  
Old 10-20-2017, 04:48 PM
JonPR JonPR is offline
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Originally Posted by AndreF View Post
Out of the three I much prefer the top one. I don't think I recall ever having seen dotted rhythms in TAB. Quite clever the way the TAB borrows from standard notation while staying true to tablature format.
I like that one too, but then I understand notation!
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  #59  
Old 10-20-2017, 05:07 PM
Howard Emerson Howard Emerson is offline
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I like that one too, but then I understand notation!
Jon,
The irony is that although I can't sight read anything, I do understand theory pretty well. In particular the Nashville System of notation, or 'thinking', is what always stood me in good stead in the studio.

I can play in any tuning, change it to another and put a capo on and do overdubs for days without much thought.

It's probably more to the point that the Nashville System just explains how I think:-)

Nobody need ask what it is. Just google it.

Best,
Howard
http://howardemerson.com/product/the-wall-talks
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  #60  
Old 10-20-2017, 05:25 PM
rob2966 rob2966 is offline
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I grew up learning most of my guitar on TAB, but before the internet so I did work on the ear training a lot as well (my TAB was in purchased music books or guitar magazines).

I find the notation + TAB is really the best of both worlds for the guitar. I look at the notation for all timing info and also to get a good idea of the "flow" of the melody, especially if I am learning a less familiar piece. The fingering guidance provided by the TAB speeds things up a fair bit.

At this point, I can pretty much "sight read" the notation + TAB combo. I am pulling timing off of the notation staff and fingering from the TAB staff. Works for me. I find the TAB only, even the stuff with some kind of timing guidelines is very cumbersome.

Later
Rob
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