ES2- How is it an "upgrade"?

[Joe F]

Having had all of the ES versions from ES1.1 through ES1.3 and now ES2, I'd have to say that I do like the ES2 the best. While the ES1 concept of having a balanced output was certainly innovative, how many of us actually plugged straight into balanced inputs? Putting anything in the signal chain from tuners to the majority of pedals to standard guitar amp instrument inputs negated the balanced output factor as one of the two balanced signal outputs was left connected to...nothing.

I also agree that some sound board peeps did not understand the ES1 characteristics and in one case I personally experienced tried to EQ it like the piezo pickups they were used to.

Having said that however, as much as I do like the ES2, as others have noted, the string squeak factor can border on obnoxious. I am considering trying out a set of Elixir Polywebs on my next go around to see if they reduce this significantly without muffling the sound too much.

[SpruceTop]

Originally Posted by Joe F

Having had all of the ES versions from ES1.1 through ES1.3 and now ES2, I'd have to say that I do like the ES2 the best. While the ES1 concept of having a balanced output was certainly innovative, how many of us actually plugged straight into balanced inputs? Putting anything in the signal chain from tuners to the majority of pedals to standard guitar amp instrument inputs negated the balanced output factor as one of the two balanced signal outputs was left connected to...nothing.

I also agree that some sound board peeps did not understand the ES1 characteristics and in one case I personally experienced tried to EQ it like the piezo pickups they were used to.

Having said that however, as much as I do like the ES2, as others have noted, the string squeak factor can border on obnoxious. I am considering trying out a set of Elixir Polywebs on my next go around to see if they reduce this significantly without muffling the sound too much.

Try using Fast Fret on coated and non-coated strings to greatly reduce finger-squeak and prolong string life. It works!

[SongwriterFan]

Originally Posted by Petty1818

Could you explain this a bit more? What exactly is there to understand about the ES1?

Originally Posted by Joe F

I also agree that some sound board peeps did not understand the ES1 characteristics and in one case I personally experienced tried to EQ it like the piezo pickups they were used to.

I thought I was being clear, but I guess not. Joe pretty much nails it with his response.

Sound guys (he says "some", I would say "mamy") simply didn't understand that this was DIFFERENT than a piezo UST pickup, and they tried to adjust/EQ it as if it were a piezo UST.

The same way that "many" sound guys can't seem to figure out how to properly EQ anything but an SM58 vocal mic.

[Joe F]

Originally Posted by SongwriterFan

I thought I was being clear, but I guess not. Joe pretty much nails it with his response.

Sound guys (he says "some", I would say "mamy") simply didn't understand that this was DIFFERENT than a piezo UST pickup, and they tried to adjust/EQ it as if it were a piezo UST.

The same way that "many" sound guys can't seem to figure out how to properly EQ anything but an SM58 vocal mic.

Here's another great example I remembered I that I personally experienced. Some years back I was a music leader in a church. I had a 2007 814ce with the ES1.2. A nearby church was having building renovations done and had arranged to use our building for their service after we completed ours. Their sound guy showed up early to get familiar with our setup and board. In chatting with him between our rehearsal/sound check and the start of our service he was very critical of my ES1 equipped Taylor. Much too "honky and magnetic sounding" for his tastes. "Sounds like an electric" blah blah blah...

After our service was over, I stayed to help them setup for their service. Their music leader shows up with his pre-2003 Taylor with the old Fishman Prefix UST based system. It was quite quacky and rubber bandy sounding. Their sound guy looks over at me and says "Now THAT"S what a plugged in acoustic is supposed to sound like."

I just grinned and exited the building!

[Petty1818]

Originally Posted by SongwriterFan

I thought I was being clear, but I guess not. Joe pretty much nails it with his response.

Sound guys (he says "some", I would say "mamy") simply didn't understand that this was DIFFERENT than a piezo UST pickup, and they tried to adjust/EQ it as if it were a piezo UST.

The same way that "many" sound guys can't seem to figure out how to properly EQ anything but an SM58 vocal mic.

Unfortunately, I think that has less to do with the fact that sound men don't understand the ES1 and more to do with the fact that there are a lot of bad sound men out there. If someone is mixing a pickup based on a preconception of how it should be eq'd then they are doing it all wrong. Whatever happened to mixing with your ears?

[Petty1818]

Originally Posted by Joe F

Here's another great example I remembered I that I personally experienced. Some years back I was a music leader in a church. I had a 2007 814ce with the ES1.2. A nearby church was having building renovations done and had arranged to use our building for their service after we completed ours. Their sound guy showed up early to get familiar with our setup and board. In chatting with him between our rehearsal/sound check and the start of our service he was very critical of my ES1 equipped Taylor. Much too "honky and magnetic sounding" for his tastes. "Sounds like an electric" blah blah blah...

After our service was over, I stayed to help them setup for their service. Their music leader shows up with his pre-2003 Taylor with the old Fishman Prefix UST based system. It was quite quacky and rubber bandy sounding. Their sound guy looks over at me and says "Now THAT"S what a plugged in acoustic is supposed to sound like."

I just grinned and exited the building!

Not to be that guy but I used the ES1 system for a good two years before finally ripping it out. It sounded like an electric guitar and despite eq, it always had a terrible tone to it. I have never hated a pickup more than the ES1. The comment the sound man mad could have been more about how much better the UST sounded over the ES1. I don't love the tone of a UST but it's much better than the ES1. It's all subjective but I just really hated it.

[James May]

Another reason that the ES2 is and upgrade over the ES1 is that ES2 works great with ToneDexter, in case you want to go full tilt on the sound.

ES1, being magnetic, does not work properly with ToneDexter.

IMHO, the ES2 system sounds pretty good for a piezo based system. With TD, it's super lovely!

[SpruceTop]

Originally Posted by James May

Another reason that the ES2 is and upgrade over the ES1 is that ES2 works great with ToneDexter, in case you want to go full tilt on the sound.

ES1, being magnetic, does not work properly with ToneDexter.

IMHO, the ES2 system sounds pretty good for a piezo based system. With TD, it's super lovely!

+1 for the Taylor ES2 with ToneDexter!

[pieterh]

Originally Posted by Petty1818

Unfortunately, I think that has less to do with the fact that sound men don't understand the ES1 and more to do with the fact that there are a lot of bad sound men out there. If someone is mixing a pickup based on a preconception of how it should be eq'd then they are doing it all wrong. Whatever happened to mixing with your ears?

I was going to reply in a similar vein and then you said this.

Professional sound engineers eq the sound they are getting, not the sound they think they are getting. I don’t mix a guitar assuming anything - I don’t know before hearing it what kind of pickup is in there. I’ve mixed pre-ES2 Taylors that sounded great, I could never get mine to work for me. I prefer many mics to the 58 because for me they need (often) less eq-ing in a lot of situations.

And just to be stubborn, surely there are sound women too...?

[MikeBmusic]

And to throw another wrench into it - sometimes its not the guitar/pickup at all, it's the system its plugged into.
My new band was using an old powered amp with minimal EQ ability and my ES1.3 sounded quacky, no mater how I EQed with my Radial PZPre. Upgraded to a newer powered mixer (albeit a Behringer) and the sound quality is so much better (same speakers).

[Rudals]

"Sigh" I just gave up on the ES and put K&K Pure Mini. I couldn't stand the tinny and metallic sound.

[ii Cybershot ii]

Just an FYI to everyone, I haven't tried it, but there's a retro kit on ebay where you can take out the Taylor battery compartment and 1/4" jack on both the ES1 and ES2 and replace with a piece of wood that will hold most other manufacturers 1/4" jacks. You can also take out the preamp where the dials are or just leave them there. Search "expression system retro kit" on ebay. I have no affiliation with the manufacturer.

[SongwriterFan]

Here's a comparison of the ES1 vs ES2 vs mic'd (Shure Beta 181/S)

Skip to about the 6-minute mark if you want to hear all the "words" about the various pickups before hearing the comparison.

[vindibona1]

Originally Posted by SongwriterFan

Here's a comparison of the ES1 vs ES2 vs mic'd (Shure Beta 181/S)

Skip to about the 6-minute mark if you want to hear all the "words" about the various pickups before hearing the comparison.

I think you forgot to post this link... but I found it anyway. Personally I like the ES1 for a sound that sounds most like the acoustic renditions.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K3xYGxjcUQo

[Petty1818]

Originally Posted by ii Cybershot ii

Just an FYI to everyone, I haven't tried it, but there's a retro kit on ebay where you can take out the Taylor battery compartment and 1/4" jack on both the ES1 and ES2 and replace with a piece of wood that will hold most other manufacturers 1/4" jacks. You can also take out the preamp where the dials are or just leave them there. Search "expression system retro kit" on ebay. I have no affiliation with the manufacturer.

I haven't seen the wood one but I ordered the metal tru-plug and it's fantastic. I heard that they are stopping making them but honestly it was an awesome solution. It fit perfectly. My music store was so impressed that they ordered a bunch in for future expression system changes.