Music theory is easy -- and it's fun!

[callouses]

Originally Posted by drguitar001

I'm not sure what "less common than you think" means. Are you saying that you have done a study of blues players and less than half will use the b5 in the course of soloing? Can you name any well known blues players who never use a b5? Just one?

This might be a good time for me to apologize for being such a stickler for accuracy. As a music teacher for the last 40+ years, it is important that folks who are speaking in musical terms accurately use the language associated with making music. We have all seen what happens to language when it is commonly twisted (Bad= bad = good = bad?". Also, making "jokes" about how folks might use music theory seems less like a joke and more like a self serving boost. I'm just another Bozo on this bus and no better than the next man (or woman). But I have spent much of my life producing music as a composer, performer, arranger, teacher, student and an instrument builder/repairman. So when it comes to folks making fun of knowledge that I think is important, I find it is best to be accurate in my response, even if it might rub the comedian the wrong way.

So I guess my actual response to the original "joke" should be,

"Thirty thousand comedians out of work in this country and you are trying to be one!"

I think we made the point that music theory is necessary, more in some environments and less in others. it wasn't anybody's intent to encroach upon what someone else considers to be holy ground. We were just having fun. Do we need a hall monitor now? Seriously, guys, whoever needs to, take a pill. No disrespect, and props to you (really), for your position and your career, but a big part of this forum is to make friends and have fun. Music is, after all, fun......The other part is that we need to be able to rely on those whose skill and knowledge surpasses our own, for help and advice, which I have asked for many times. Don't put distance between yourself and others by coming off as rude. We may need to ask you something someday.

[Bern]

The b5 is a passing note...just for the purpose of tension. As to the question, how many blues players use the b5? To be honest, I find this question to be nothing more than amusing.

[JoeCharter]

Originally Posted by drguitar001

I'm not sure what "less common than you think" means. Are you saying that you have done a study of blues players and less than half will use the b5 in the course of soloing? Can you name any well known blues players who never use a b5? Just one?

This might be a good time for me to apologize for being such a stickler for accuracy. As a music teacher for the last 40+ years, it is important that folks who are speaking in musical terms accurately use the language associated with making music. We have all seen what happens to language when it is commonly twisted (Bad= bad = good = bad?". Also, making "jokes" about how folks might use music theory seems less like a joke and more like a self serving boost. I'm just another Bozo on this bus and no better than the next man (or woman). But I have spent much of my life producing music as a composer, performer, arranger, teacher, student and an instrument builder/repairman. So when it comes to folks making fun of knowledge that I think is important, I find it is best to be accurate in my response, even if it might rub the comedian the wrong way.

So I guess my actual response to the original "joke" should be,

"Thirty thousand comedians out of work in this country and you are trying to be one!"

Keep your dense comments for your students. It's the AGF here and some folks actually have a sense a humour which may elude you.

You've got 13 posts, half of which were wasted having a non argument with me and others.

You don't like my posts? Skip to the next one and stop being such a pain.

BTW I know of very few musicians who choose to teach if they're skilled enough to perform, even less so for an entire lifetime. You may be different of course but I'm just making the comment in passing.

Have a wunderful evening and a superb week.

[mr. beaumont]

Originally Posted by drguitar001

I'm not sure what "less common than you think" means. Are you saying that you have done a study of blues players and less than half will use the b5 in the course of soloing? Can you name any well known blues players who never use a b5? Just one?

This might be a good time for me to apologize for being such a stickler for accuracy. As a music teacher for the last 40+ years, it is important that folks who are speaking in musical terms accurately use the language associated with making music. We have all seen what happens to language when it is commonly twisted (Bad= bad = good = bad?". Also, making "jokes" about how folks might use music theory seems less like a joke and more like a self serving boost. I'm just another Bozo on this bus and no better than the next man (or woman). But I have spent much of my life producing music as a composer, performer, arranger, teacher, student and an instrument builder/repairman. So when it comes to folks making fun of knowledge that I think is important, I find it is best to be accurate in my response, even if it might rub the comedian the wrong way.

So I guess my actual response to the original "joke" should be,

"Thirty thousand comedians out of work in this country and you are trying to be one!"

It means that although the minor pentatonic plus the flat fifth is called the "blues scale," that's actually not a common tone to hang on in blues licks.

My source is proofreading and writing an evaluation for the book, "2000 blues licks that rock" by professor Lawrence Fritts. His research was rather exhaustive. Check it out. You'll see that flat five used mostly as a passing tone, and not that often...

[drguitar001]

Originally Posted by JoeCharter

...You've got 13 posts, half of which were wasted having a non argument with me and others.

You have mentioned that a few times now...I had no idea that validity was based on the sheer number of posts. But if that is the case, then your word must be gold.

Originally Posted by JoeCharter

BTW I know of very few musicians who choose to teach if they're skilled enough to perform, even less so for an entire lifetime. You may be different of course but I'm just making the comment in passing.

That's interesting as most of the full time musicians I know also teach including most members of the Philadelphia Orchestra, and the finest jazz players I know like Pat Martino, Jim Hall and countless other top tier musicians. I must admit though that many folks I know who are rock players do not teach, but most of them are not full time musicians and have other day jobs to support playing out. So once again your thinly veiled criticism carries no truth to it.

Have a spectacular life.

[drguitar001]

Sorry about the misunderstanding Mr. B. When you said,

Originally Posted by mr. beaumont

Nah...they call it a blue note but blues players hardly ever use that one...

I took that to mean that blues players hardly ever use the b5. What you meant to say was blues players hardly ever sit on that note. And I agree completely. The b5 is often used as a note of tension and movement and is an important part of establishing a strong "bluesy" sound when building blues riffs/licks.

But, as you clarified, it is rarely sat upon during a solo nor is it used to end a phrase or lick. Sorry, I did not understand your earlier post.

[mr. beaumont]

Originally Posted by drguitar001

I'm not sure what "less common than you think" means. Are you saying that you have done a study of blues players and less than half will use the b5 in the course of soloing? Can you name any well known blues players who never use a b5? Just one?

This might be a good time for me to apologize for being such a stickler for accuracy. As a music teacher for the last 40+ years, it is important that folks who are speaking in musical terms accurately use the language associated with making music. We have all seen what happens to language when it is commonly twisted (Bad= bad = good = bad?". Also, making "jokes" about how folks might use music theory seems less like a joke and more like a self serving boost. I'm just another Bozo on this bus and no better than the next man (or woman). But I have spent much of my life producing music as a composer, performer, arranger, teacher, student and an instrument builder/repairman. So when it comes to folks making fun of knowledge that I think is important, I find it is best to be accurate in my response, even if it might rub the comedian the wrong way.

So I guess my actual response to the original "joke" should be,

"Thirty thousand comedians out of work in this country and you are trying to be one!"

Easy to take the wrong way, should have been more specific.

It is pretty common to hear a jazz player use it as part of a slur bookended by the fifth...but even as a passing tone, for example, it's low on the list of common tones emplyed by blues players...

The real "blue note" is that note about half way between the m3 and the M3.

[Timothy Lawler]

Originally Posted by JoeCharter

I've noticed how a lot of threads on theory often turn sour because we each have a different perception of what theory is and what it brings to the table.

So I did my homework and found the following from Boretz (1995) on Wikipedia:

Broadly, music theory may include any statement, belief, or conception of or about music.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Music_theory#cite_note-1

I hope you're all as excited as I am now that everyone can be known (or unknown) as a music theorist!

Here's some of my own examples of theory:

a) I always go to the bathroom before a recital because I think the music is much more enjoyable and flows better uninterrupted.

b) I do not fart when I play flamenco because back in the 18th century (when flamenco was first mentioned in literature), the Spaniards didn't think it was cool to fart. For historical accuracy, I choose to hold it in when I play that (otherwise beautiful) music genre.

c) I like to play the C chord with a pick because the C chord is just below the D chord and it makes me angry. I think I can express anger better with a pick so that's why I use a heavy pick to really convey my deep inner soulful thoughts.

Give theory a try! Anyone can do it!

Excellent!

Ironic that the "threads on theory often turn sour" idea from your first sentence ended up happening here too. I've never seen a theory thread go well anywhere, except on forums that were mainly inhabited by composers.

[JoeCharter]

Originally Posted by drguitar001

You have mentioned that a few times now...I had no idea that validity was based on the sheer number of posts. But if that is the case, then your word must be gold.

You read want you want to read. If you had more than 15 posts, you would not have jumped to the conclusion that I dismiss theory in any way -- and perhaps you would've taken it more lightly, like others here.

Originally Posted by drguitar001

That's interesting as most of the full time musicians I know also teach including most members of the Philadelphia Orchestra, and the finest jazz players I know like Pat Martino, Jim Hall and countless other top tier musicians. I must admit though that many folks I know who are rock players do not teach, but most of them are not full time musicians and have other day jobs to support playing out. So once again your thinly veiled criticism carries no truth to it.

Have a spectacular life.

Randy Rhoads and Joe Satriani, and many other rock musicians also used to teach while being at the top of their game. Doesn't deny the rule that the best musicians in every genre are busy performing.

The way I see it, you're this seemingly hugely successful musician who's old enough to be my dad. And after a long and fruitful career, you come here on the AGF and make personal attacks on ignorants (sic) like me. All of this under a pseudonym.

I know plenty of successful guys your age and they all share one thing in common -- they are way too happy with themselves to consider attacking young Padawans.

The AGF is filled with threads on whether it's normal to struggle with barre chords and whether theory might limit musicians. We're far from Berklee, aren't we?

BTW is this you on this video by any chance?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S2DyJxVAO0Y

If it's you, it might explain why we're having this disagreement. I don't take things nearly as seriously as you do -- but it doesn't mean I love and respect music any less.

If you're happy with your approach, so be it. Just cut the personal attacks and insinuations.

[JoeCharter]

Originally Posted by Timothy Lawler

Excellent!

Ironic that the "threads on theory often turn sour" idea from your first sentence ended up happening here too. I've never seen a theory thread go well anywhere, except on forums that were mainly inhabited by composers.

I'm glad you enjoyed the humour, Tim.

There's an old saying in French that goes somewhat like this: "If the hat fits you, put it on. If it doesn't, don't."

[callouses]

Originally Posted by drguitar001

You have mentioned that a few times now...I had no idea that validity was based on the sheer number of posts. But if that is the case, then your word must be gold.



That's interesting as most of the full time musicians I know also teach including most members of the Philadelphia Orchestra, and the finest jazz players I know like Pat Martino, Jim Hall and countless other top tier musicians. I must admit though that many folks I know who are rock players do not teach, but most of them are not full time musicians and have other day jobs to support playing out. So once again your thinly veiled criticism carries no truth to it.

Have a spectacular life.

I don't know about everyone else, but I'm tired of you beating your chest. Are you simply coming in here and marking out a territory for yourself? The by-law of this forum is "be nice". And people usually are. You strike me as one of those types whose by-law is "Please be reasonable and do it my way". You may know enough about music to fill volumes but your people skills need a little work. Do us all a favor and hold off on posting until you develop some.

[mr. beaumont]

Originally Posted by callouses

I don't know about everyone else, but I'm tired of you beating your chest. Are you simply coming in here and marking out a territory for yourself? The by-law of this forum is "be nice". And people usually are. You strike me as one of those types whose by-law is "Please be reasonable and do it my way". You may know enough about music to fill volumes but your people skills need a little work. Do us all a favor and hold off on posting until you develop some.

I think he had every right to defend himself after Joe's BS insinuation that those who teach don't have what it takes to perform.

[callouses]

Jeff, I think everyone has a right to their own opinion, and I'm not saying that anyone shouldn't be able to defend themselves. But lets remember, this silly, pointless argument got started by drguitar001, putting joe on defense from the start. What I'm saying is that this whole thing is ridiculous. People are acting like 3rd graders playing dodgeball. Joe was just having a good spirited, fun discussion in an effort to see what kind of lighthearted responses he could get, to maybe learn a little bit about the responders, and have a sense of humor. It turns out the only thing funny was some who take themselves so seriously, have no idea how to relax and enjoy some simple banter. The point is exactly the opposite of what happened. A good idea gone sour indeed. We shouldn't be divisive and caustic with each other, life is too short. I admire and respect those with abilities greater than my own, and it inspires me to reach for more myself. But it's a let down when ego's get the best of us. Let's be adults. Joe, I'm sorry this happened, I was having a good time.

[JoeCharter]

Originally Posted by mr. beaumont

I think he had every right to defend himself after Joe's BS insinuation that those who teach don't have what it takes to perform.

I respect players of all styles and levels. You know that and I know that.

Otherwise you may want to back track on this thread and look at who took the first personal shot.

And yes, I stand by my comment that generally the finest performers have no time to teach -- and those who choose a full time career as teachers usually aren't the "bestest" players.

Now, everyone could name me a ton of exceptions -- but that's beside the point.

It's ok to disagree but you may want to remove that two letter acronym.

[JoeCharter]

Originally Posted by callouses

Jeff, I think everyone has a right to their own opinion, and I'm not saying that anyone shouldn't be able to defend themselves. But lets remember, this silly, pointless argument got started by drguitar001, putting joe on defense from the start. What I'm saying is that this whole thing is ridiculous. People are acting like 3rd graders playing dodgeball. Joe was just having a good spirited, fun discussion in an effort to see what kind of lighthearted responses he could get, to maybe learn a little bit about the responders, and have a sense of humor. It turns out the only thing funny was some who take themselves so seriously, have no idea how to relax and enjoy some simple banter. The point is exactly the opposite of what happened. A good idea gone sour indeed. We shouldn't be divisive and caustic with each other, life is too short. I admire and respect those with abilities greater than my own, and it inspires me to reach for more myself. But it's a let down when ego's get the best of us. Let's be adults. Joe, I'm sorry this happened, I was having a good time.

Thank you for understanding the spirit that I intended for this thread...