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Old 07-29-2010, 02:42 PM
Cue Zephyr Cue Zephyr is offline
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Default NMD: CAD M179 (finally!)

Howdy folks!

An odd 8 weeks ago I snagged a CAD M179 off eBay for several reasons...
  1. I wanted a multi-pattern LDC
  2. I wanted something that was a better match to my MK-012
  3. I wanted to know how much customs wanted from me (an odd 45 bucks)

Here are two test recordings with the 012 and the 179:
(I'm slaughtering Don Ross' beautiful song 'Catherine')
ORTF-ish:
http://www.box.net/shared/uz8m6ziro9
M-S:
http://www.box.net/shared/a66xuckpvn
Snuck a hint of reverb under it, and some slight EQ (annoying jangling sound on my guitar) compression and limiting - everything that I'd normally do.

I must say it pairs very well with the 012, not so much with the 319 and the 012. BUT, the 319 - I think - still shines on my vocals.

CZ
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Last edited by Cue Zephyr; 07-29-2010 at 03:41 PM. Reason: Title got messed up.
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Old 07-29-2010, 07:22 PM
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Both clips sound good. Congrats.
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Old 07-30-2010, 06:18 AM
Ty Ford Ty Ford is offline
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love the playing, but there's a very weird buzz in the sustained notes that you hit and in general around the edges. Even on the harmonics.

My wife's Taylor and other Taylor's I have played don't have that sound.

Sorry, but it's a real put off for me.

Regards,

Ty Ford
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Old 07-30-2010, 07:26 AM
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deleted deleted
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Last edited by rick-slo; 07-30-2010 at 07:33 AM.
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Old 07-30-2010, 07:29 AM
Cue Zephyr Cue Zephyr is offline
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Thanks!

Ty,
It could be the strings. The B string had a weird buzz in it ever since I tuned it down and back up. Above that, the strings are about two months old (Elixir PBs). Do you think it can be either of those things? And it's like, the lowest end Taylor, too.
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Old 07-30-2010, 12:25 PM
alohachris alohachris is offline
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Default Cue, Good Job - Check Out These to Cure The Buzz

Aloha Cue,

Decent job. The basic recording sound is good.

On the playing, why not just keep it simple and play what you know well for sharing here instead of attempting a very difficult piece like 'Catherine?' I know you are very young, Cue, and play much better than I did back then. But it IS difiicult to listen to a piece of music learned/played in chopped up sections that haven't been smoothed out yet, understand?

Not being critical, just trying to help. As Bob Dylan sang, "but I'll know my song well before I start a-singin'." Good words. Keep it simple and play music, not cool sounds.

I also heard the buzz that Ty referred to. A few things to do: First, put on new strings - a different kind perhaps like phosphor bronze instead of Elixirs. Second, use 1000 grit sandpaper and lightly clean out the nut slots. Then check out the saddle for slots that the strings may have dug in and lightly sand or file those out. You don't want slots in a saddle. Those are the first places to start for the kind of buzz I heard.

Other than that, the mic combo sounded fine. I'm sure you'll dial it in soon.

All the best Cue. 'Catherine' is a very tough song to copy well. Not as bad as 'Ebon Coast' but.....Very Good Job.

A Hui Hou!
alohachris

Last edited by alohachris; 07-30-2010 at 01:06 PM.
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Old 07-30-2010, 12:48 PM
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Jeez, what comments!

The recording was fine with the new mikes.

On the tangent issues mentioned the buzz has some charm (realism) and the playing was just fine.
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Old 07-30-2010, 01:49 PM
Cue Zephyr Cue Zephyr is offline
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Howdy Chris,

You're one of those members who I always want to get comments from.
I actually think I took 'close-miking' a bit too literally, it was like 15cm away from the guitar. I can't do a proper ORTF setup with this as the mics aren't the same model or characteristic. I hope to get another MK-012 at some point.
A nice X-Y setup could work well with this combo, though.
This is how well I can play it. The only thing that doesn't go that well here is the middle part with the improvised strumming and slapping, as well as the harmonic slaps at the end. Besides that, I think I'll manage.
The most mistakes are in the beat department, I do the rests too short and continue playing too quickly. Oh, and that slowing down for that run... I like that.
I have PBs on it, but yeah I know what you mean, thinking of going for the Sunbeams, actually. Besides that I only have Dean Markley Alchemy left, D'Addario EXP17 as well as the uncoated EJ17, Dean Markley Helix, GHS Infinity and Martin SP+ (coated, both 80/20 and PB).
All are 13-56. Which would you recommend? I have a recording session coming up this Sunday, too.
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Old 07-30-2010, 04:10 PM
alohachris alohachris is offline
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Default Aloha Cue

Aloha Cue,

I really enjoy your posts, brah. And your playing is Really VERY Good. I provided those helpful comments because I knew you can handle it- that you're completely dedicated to being the best you can be. Not many here are ambitious enough to tackle the songs you do, like 'Ebon' no matter how old. Nor are they as humble anough to handle advice from older players. Thank you for allowing me to pass on my opinions to you.

(Was Just trying to be helpful with honesty, Rick. It's just an opinion.)

Cue, I have confidence that YOU will be a monster guitar player for life. It's refreshing to meet a youngster online here as talented and open to helpful comments as you, Cue. You Da Man! And & Heckuva player!

Of course, from various pictures, you've received advice from all your acoustic heroes in person. That takes guts and can only make ya better. Bravo Cue!

Re: Strings. As you know, I play three self-made guitars. I started out three decades ago using mediums on a couple & lights on the other. In the interest of making sure the necks remain stable, about 15 years ago, I began to make light-medium custom sets.

I buy D'Addario L16 lights and add a 13 and a 17 medium to beef up the trebles for open tunings. That works for me and is what I use. I've reset too many necks (hundreds) to believe that mediums are good for guitars.

I liked what I heard from the 179/012 combo. Let's here some more pieces of your music. Again, what's your recording chain? For this old timer with the poruous memory?

All the best, Cue.

A Hui Hou!
alohachris
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Old 07-30-2010, 06:46 PM
Cue Zephyr Cue Zephyr is offline
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Thanks for the kind words, Chris!

Being the best I can? No way in hell. If I'd actually practice more I would be the best I can. However I am ambitious enough to tackle songs like these. Ebon took me actually triple the time it took for me to figure out Catherine. Your opinions all seem legitimate to me, so no reason to not allow you to pass them on.

I have met only Andy McKee, and hope to meet Don Ross and Antoine Dufour at some point too, maybe even Pierre Bensusan. Sadly, I will never meet Michael Hedges (RIP guitar man).

On the strings... well my Taylor came strung with mediums, so I went (stuck) with that. I think I will change my strings tomorrow and play all day so I have a nice fresh sound for recording. Still not sure whether I want to risk using Sunbeams though...

P.S: My mics go into an E-MU 0404 USB into REAPER. I'm soon gonna need another interface though, as I feel just two inputs limit me. I want the second MK-012 first, though.
Time to find lazy git me a job!
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Old 07-30-2010, 07:39 PM
alohachris alohachris is offline
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Default So CUe, You're A Hedges Freak Too?

Aloha Cue,

Here in Hawaii. I'm almost at the end of a very stressful work week Freitag and you're still up pretty late/early Sat. am. Eh, let's hit the Dom for a bowl or two and a couple Thai girls, and a chat with da bobbies?!?

I have a Michael Hedges story to share with you from May of 1988. I'll expand upon it when I get home.

Michael was at the end of a 10-month long tour and was completely out of gas for his last five German concerts. Nothing left in his tank at all - nearly in tears! I ended up chauferring him to those last gigs all over Germany, getting him accomodations, and keeping him light in spirit to make it through, by various means and stimulants.

I'd met him over the phone several times re: guitars and was introduced by Alex DeGrassi
in the early 80's. Of course, I got to know him better on this brief forthnight and enjoyed his completely unique personna - not to mention viewing close-up his acoustic magic and innovative music. Never met anyone before or since who was like that dude - as a player or spirit.

There was a time when he was driving my car on our way down to a college gig in Freiburg im Schwarzwald. I was plucking away on his Dyer harp guitar, singing/parodying a Gabby Pahinui Hawaiian song, "Moonlight Lady." Laughing our azzes off and drinking Meisel's hefeweizen from a cooler - at 120 mph!

More later!

alohachris

Last edited by alohachris; 07-31-2010 at 12:25 AM.
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Old 07-30-2010, 10:39 PM
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hey Cue, nice job. The "ortf-ish" works pretty nicely, good sound, nice wide, very present image.

The MS recording could use a bit more work, tho. You're very unbalanced toward the right, and in fact the right channel is heavily clipped, even clipping in the quiet parts. Could just be how you mixed it, or maybe you don't have the MS technique quite down. Can you describe what you did?
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Old 07-31-2010, 06:03 AM
Cue Zephyr Cue Zephyr is offline
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Howdy Chris,
That is a nice story. I would have loved to meet him, but I didn't exist in '88 and I didn't pick up the guitar before 2006, 9 years after his death. I'm especially intrigued by his persona, as well as seeing him play up close. He plays with so much energy - I have NEVER seen anybody do that like Hedges did.

Doug,
Thanks, have you got any tips on this ORTF-ish set-up? This is what I did for that set-up:
SDC (cardioid) on 12th-14th fret, titlted at a 10-15 degree angle towards the soundhole (so it was pointing to the frets, but slightly tilted towards the soundhole).
LDC at bridge, tilted with the same angle to the soundhole.

For the M-S (my very first M-S recording actually) I did the following:
I put the SDC over the LDC, pointing towards the 12th-14th fret area, at about 20 cm distance. The LDC was on the full fig-8 pattern directly under the SDC. But because it was near the 12th fret it got all the sound of the soundbox, that's why it was biased towards the right this heavily. I might try moving it around a bit.

Here's another M-S recording:
http://www.box.net/shared/hbg3irn3m3
I lowered the volume of the side recording and restored the panning in the stereo/MS-joiner imaging plugin.
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Last edited by Cue Zephyr; 07-31-2010 at 08:23 AM.
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Old 07-31-2010, 12:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cue Zephyr View Post
Howdy Chris,
Thanks, have you got any tips on this ORTF-ish set-up?
True ORTF is with both mics as close together as you can, pointing outward, angled 110 degrees. Ideally, you have two identical mics, with the capsules as close to touching as is possible. It's a "coincident" technique, meaning that both mics are in as close to the same spot as physically possible, so you get no phasing issues.

What you're describing sounds like spaced pairs. But it sounds fine, and is probably the best way to use SDC/LDC pairs.

Quote:
For the M-S (my very first M-S recording actually) I did the following:
I put the SDC over the LDC, pointing towards the 12th-14th fret area, at about 20 cm distance.
I've never had any luck with this 12th fret position for stereo recording that so many people recommend, works great for mono, but for stereo, it means all the sound comes from one side. What usually works for me for MS, as well as XY, is right in front of the guitar, usually inline with the waist of the body - more or less in front of the soundhole, but raised so that the mics are vertically inline with the top of the guitar - to avoid the boom of the soundhole.

Drifting sounds much better, and seems balanced left to right, but is still seriously clipping. You don't need (or want!) to record that hot.

Suggestions for setting up MS (You're probably doing most of this):

First, since you are using unmatched mics, you need to calibrate your mic levels. Set both mics to cardiod, place them close together pointing in the same direction, and set your preamp levels so that the recorded levels for both mics are the same (play a note or hum, or whatever, to generate a test signal). Make sure the SDC is an the left channel, LDC right.

Next, I'd try the centered position I described above. Point the SDC directly at the guitar, right at the waist. Take the LDC and place it either right above or right below, turned sideways. Put the LDC in figure 8, of course. Don't change your preamp levels.

It should look something like this from the side.



You can play around with placement, distance, etc. I'd just listen to the SDC in mono and get it to sound good. The LDC just goes along for the ride.

You may have to play with stereo balance a bit, either by positioning the mics, or rotating them. Metering in MS is a bit confusing, since you can't easily see the stereo image, and it also wont' sound right in headphones unless you have a way of monitoring a decoded signal. But if you have a stereo vector meter (I don't know what Reaper has, but there are lots of plugins), an MS signal in a typical vector scope will look something like this when it's balanced:



When you turn the LDC to the side, the level of that channel will drop, of course. That's fine, leave it alone. Again, I don't know how Reaper displays waveforms, but the raw MS track hopefully looks something like this :



Notice how the right (side) channel is much lower in level.

Now apply your decoder plugin, and the result should look like this:



Tweak and adjust and repeat as needed till you like what you hear. Notice that no peaks are clipped. You can leave plenty more headroom than this, and especially on a percussive piece like Drifting, you'll need to leave a lot of headroom, and it'll be fine. In contrast, your Drifting track looks like this:



which is seriously clipped. Unless you're trying to create a digital fuzzbox sound, you want to avoid this.

By the way, check out Fran Guidry's tutorial on MS, too:

http://www.homebrewedmusic.com/2009/...-the-zoom-h4n/

Hope this helps!

Last edited by Doug Young; 07-31-2010 at 02:56 PM.
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Old 07-31-2010, 02:44 PM
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oops, let me correct my muddled and misleading comments about ORTF, I was in too much of a hurry to get to the fun stuff (MS).

XY is "coincident", capsules physically as close as possible, 90 degree angle.

ORTF is "near coincident", 110 degree angle, capsules 17cm apart, about the same distance apart as your ears.

XY is perfectly in phase, ORTF is less so, but that's OK, the phase differences are part of what creates the wider stereo image. Both techniques in theory should use identical mics, cardiods, so your LDC/SDC combo isn't really right for either one. But never let theoretical rules get in the way :-)

Last edited by Doug Young; 07-31-2010 at 02:50 PM.
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