Help! Lost in the world of pickups...

[ScooberJake]

Here's my situation. I am a violinist by training who has recently been recruited to lead worship once a month at my church (on guitar). So far I've been playing on my wife's little Ovation which I'm not too fond of. I have also borrowed and played a friend's Taylor 110 through an instrumental mic. I am looking to buy my own guitar. I was hoping to only spend $500, but unfortunately I can hear a huge difference between a $500 Seagull or Breedlove and a $1200 Martin. Can't hear as much difference between those $1200 Martins and the $2k+ Martins, Gibsons, etc. By the by I do not care for the bright Taylor sound which is so popular for worship leaders.

I have almost settled on a used Alvarez MD711SB (acoustic only) for $700 which I like slightly better than the Martin D-15M or DRS2. But I am very confused on what to do for a pickup. I love the sound of the Alvarez, but the main reason I am buying a guitar is to lead worship where I will always be amplified. I am worried that the great acoustic sound of this guitar that I fell in love with will never really be heard when I play for anyone else.

So I could really use some help choosing a pickup. I understand the physical differences between UST, SBT, mag, etc. but I don't feel like I have the experience to make a good choice because I don't know what they sound like.

Is the Anthem SL a good choice for me? It looks like some people around here prefer the Trinity, but I'm not sure I have the budget for it, I'm already exceeding my planned guitar budget. Or what about the Pure Mini? Right now I don't play with a large group (me, keyboard, sometimes a bass, singers) and I don't expect that to change anytime soon. Lots of strumming, often heavy, little to no picking.

Any advice would be much appreciated. The thought of spending $300 on a pickup, plus $100 (?) on installation, plus the anxiety of choosing the wrong one is almost pushing me to just get a Breedlove OM/MME with factory pickup and be done with it. Sorry for the longwindeness.

[jhchang]

Welcome to the forum! It really depends on your venue condition and your ultimate goal. If you don't ask for highest-possible sound quality, you don't need to spend big bucks. Anthem will be a decent working solution if you can swing it. K&K PWM is much cheaper with equally good tone, but may needs more tweaks and more prone to feedback. You can listen to numerous clips on Youtube to get rough idea how each one sounds.

[lmacmil]

I have two K&K equipped guitars but find they sound much better with a preamp so I used the Pure preamp for the open mics I do. If I was in a less hurried situation, I'd opt for a floor preamp.

I've also just discovered the Schatten HFN which I installed in a Walden grand auditorium size guitar. I got the active version with volume and tone controls. I like it a lot and there's no piezo "quack" because it mounts on the bridge plate and not under the saddle.

[fotofantom]

ScooberJake - If I were looking for a guitar to play plugged in only, I would choose one of the new Yamaha A series, or one of the older CPX or APX series. They all seem to have a great rep for their plugged in sound, though not so much for their acoustic sound. The new A series seem to be a good value with (by most accounts) a killer pickup system.

[blue]

All pickups are bad. All pickups are good. You will be unhappy with some aspect of whatever one you get. So get the best deal you can on one of the top 7 or 10, and don't sweat the details.

We've grown up accepting what various electric guitars sounds like. It's a Single Coil, a Humbucker, a Super Distortion etc. Folks know what they want for what application. "I'm a Gibson" guy or "I'm a Fender guy" type of stuff.

We've also grown up accepting what an acoustic guitar sounds like by itself. And while we're fine saying "I'm a Martin guy" or "I'm a Taylor guy, it's hard to make the same leap for people and to think in terms of "I'm a magnetic soundhole guy" or "I'm a UST" guy or "I'm ES guy". But you have to make that leap if you're going to be reasonably happy.

Pick one and stick with it, and learn to make it sound pretty good.

[royd]

First, given your description of how it will be used, I'd get a good magnetic pup and be done... I'd look at the Dimarzio Angel first and maybe the new Baggs M80, the Duncan MagMic, and the Fishman Rare Earth Blend.

now for TMI...

here's a post a did some time back about pickups... if you don't feel like wading through the entire thing, there are two links at the end where you can hear recordings of different pickups. Doug Young's page is a wonderful resource. The other has a few pickups that Doug's didn't have the last time I checked.

First off, the guitar you are using is less an issue than the setting you'll be playing in, the type of music you do, and how much expense/complexity you can tolerate. Of course there are some exceptions - an offset soundhole precludes a magnetic and some bracing schemes or bridge setups may preclude other types of pickups but beyond that, it doesn't matter whether you're amplifying a Martin, a Seagull, or a Ryan. The same questions and issues are there.

Second, amplifying an acoustic is always a series of compromises. While some pickups may get closer than others, you never get a "my guitar only louder" result for a whole bunch of reasons. That is another thread.

Each type of pickup has its own characteristic sound and attack characteristics which you may or may not like. All except an external microphone pick up their sound from a single spot/area on the instrument and even an external mic favors the area of the guitar to which it is closest. Acoustically, you would hear the entire instrument. Does the single spot present you with a picture that you like?

OK, there are basically 5 types of pickups, each with strengths and weaknesses and each having its own attack characteristics and ways of coloring the sound you amplify. Here they are

1. External microphone(s).
pro's - the most likely to sound like "my guitar only louder," Even if you point it at one spot, you get bleed from more of the instrument and hear a more accurate picture.
con's - if you move, your volume and tone changes. get too close and you may hit the mike with your guitar or your hand. feedback is an issue. bleed from other instruments/voices can be an issue. Each microphone has a different sound (check any recording studio to see how different two high end mics can be).
use - recording, small acoustic setting with very quiet audience and performer is seated, acoustic band all using one mike and moving in and out to change balances

2. Internal microphone
pro's - get the "air" and the artifacts (hit's, slaps, & squeaks that are always part of an "acoustic" sound), get some of the benefits of an external while being able to move and not worry about hitting the mike with your hand
cons - often a boxy sound from inside the guitar, high feedback susceptibility, placement is important, bass response is problematic and prone to feedback
uses - almost always used in a dual source system. Two recent systems that use internal mics as either the primary or only source that are getting excellent reviews are the Baggs Anthem which is a dual source system and the Donnell mini-flex Model 1 which has two internal microphones.

3. Sound Board Transducer - a piezo or film element or a dynamic transducer attached to the top of the guitar. Some like the K&K are recommended to be placed on the bridge plate. Others, like in the Taylor system are placed in other places. The Taylor and the Schertler Dyn-G SBT's use a dynamic transducer with a magnet and a coil, similar to a dynamic microphone, rather than the more typical piezo or film element.
quick, in your face, attack if placed on or near the bridge plate but usually without the characteristic "quack" of an under-the-saddle.
pro's - can sound fairly close to "my guitar only louder." very minor intrusion into your guitar or none, easy installation, can be the least expensive pickup type
con's - some are very feedback prone, almost all are better in medium or softer uses, placement is critical - the wrong place can sound terrible and it may be very close to the best place, some over emphasize the artifacts (body slaps, string noise, even your shirt on the back of the guitar) especially if placed incorrectly.
examples - K&K, JJB, PUTW, BBand, Baggs, Schertler, Taylor (part of the ES system).
uses - IMHO, these work best in acoustic settings at low to medium volume or are great in dual source systems

4. Under-the-saddle-transducer - UTS - there are a number of different technologies used including piezos & film
quick in your face attack. are most often used as manufacturer installed systems and are the most common type out there
pro's - they don't show from the outside, have a recognizable sound that many people like, relatively feedback resistant. these work well with modeling gear like the Aura or Mama Bear.
cons - they have a characteristic attack - called "quack" or "splatt" - that some do not like. the trebles can be harsh, installation can be a little more complicated. Some require additional routing of the saddle and bridge, balance can be tricky. Many do not amplify the artifacts at all
examples - Baggs, Fishman, BBand
uses - with a larger or electric band (especially with a soundhole cover), general use

5. Magnetic
slower, softer attack
pro's - the best feedback resistance, the best low end response, easy installation that may not modify the guitar at all, great sustain, wide price range from very inexpensive to fairly pricey
con's - they don't look "acoustic," all have a tinge to a lot of "electric" sound especially on the trebles, most have little or no amplification of the artifacts. some folk claim they change the acoustic sound of your guitar.
examples - Sunrise, Baggs, Fishman, Duncan, Taylor (as part of the ES system)
uses - loud settings with band, multi-source settings for modern fingerstyle players, an easily removed pickup for a guitar that is amplified rarely, an inexpensive pickup/"my first pickup"

Then there are multi-source systems which combine two or more types of pickups to get the strengths from each and cover the weaknesses of each. For example, most modern fingerstyle players use a multi-source with a magnetic for the big bass along with an SBT for air, accuracy, and artifacts, plus maybe an internal mike as well. They require some kind of mixing system which may be internal or external to the guitar. Some companies market multi-source systems such as Baggs, Fishman, and the Taylor ES. Others are pieced together by the player using elements from different manufacturers.

Finally, there is the question of pre-amps which can be internal to the guitar or even inside the pickup with or without controls or they can be external with various levels of control. Let me make a general statement here that I know is not 100% correct but very close... all acoustic pickups sound better with a pre-amp. If the pickup doesn't come with one, you need to add one.

So the question again is, what are you going to use the guitar for? Then, how much do you want to spend and what compromises can/will you make?

For different recorded examples, check out Doug Young's pickup tests http://www.dougyoungguitar.com/pickuptests/
also for some more pickup demos check out http://www.fingerpick.com/pickups.htm

[ScooberJake]

Thanks so much for all of the replies! I am a vibroacoustic engineer so I appreciate the detailed information.

I forgot to mention the space I will be playing in. It is a small school gym. Has a decent amount of acoustic treatment so it is not real boomy.

Right now I am leaning towards an SBT, most likely the K&K Pure. When someone mentioned the "quack" of some UST's I instantly knew what you were talking about. Really would like to avoid that. I expect that any added compliance between the saddle and the soundboard will impact the acoustic sound of the instrument, though I don't have the experience to say that I have heard the difference. But what I did notice is that as I've been trying a bunch of guitars at Guitar Center, I haven't liked any that had factory installed pickups (most likely all UST's?), even some fairly expensive Martins. So that being the case I am not very excited to put something like that in. And the K&K will give me the option of expanding to the Trinity down the line if I want to, though I'd be surprised if I ever want to spend the money on it. I am also somewhat intrigued by an external clamp-on mic that I saw somewhere, but it doesn't seem too practical. I can see that a mag would probably be the most practical, but I would really like to get the most "acoustic" sound I can. I am interested in the Rare Earth Blend, but I'm not ready to spend that much.

I am going to try to listen to some samples before making a purchase, though I'm not sure how well the recordings will replicate the differences.

[SimplyLuo]

I think the Pure Mini would work great for you given your post.
If you would prefer a bit less pricey, take a look at the JJB Prestige 330 at http://www.jjb-electronics.com/prestige.html
It's pretty similar to the Pure Mini. I haven't tried it personally so I can't say whether it sounds as good, but many have posted positive reviews.

[ScooberJake]

Originally Posted by SimplyLuo

I think the Pure Mini would work great for you given your post.
If you would prefer a bit less pricey, take a look at the JJB Prestige 330 at http://www.jjb-electronics.com/prestige.html
It's pretty similar to the Pure Mini. I haven't tried it personally so I can't say whether it sounds as good, but many have posted positive reviews.

Thanks, I'll take a look!

[SteveS]

I have used or installed almost every pick up on the market. I am also a worship leader. I have trouble recommending the K&K mini in your situation because if it is a loud stage you will have to deal with feedback. It is bad enough that I will never use K&K mini again. Some will say that it is not an issue, but really that just means that it was not for them and they have no way of knowing if it will or will not be a problem for you.
In my mind, the best inexpensive choice for you is the DTAR Wavelength. The output is high, the quackiness is mostly removed by the on board pre-amp and it is very feedback resistant.
If you want to spend a little more and get what I have found to be the best sound, PUTW has developed a new dual source that is the closest thing to a mic sound, in other words, it sounds like your guitar, plus it is very feedback resistant - more so than a UST.
What ever you decide, if you are near Temecula, I will make you a great deal on installation. Bring the guitar and pickup to me and I'll install it for free and send you on your way in about an hour.

[ScooberJake]

Steve,

Thanks very much for the reply. I am concerned about feedback with the K&K. Unfortunately I don't have any idea whether this will be a problem. I would say the stage is not very loud (quieter than the audience at some churches I have been too!). But the speakers are mounted on the wall behind us and we use monitors on a low volume. Last month I played with my friend's Taylor 110 into an external mic, no problems. I don't know if that gives any indication.

The Wavelength does look like a good potential option. The higher dynamic range sounds promising for eliminating quack. And I like the option of adding another source later. But I am concerned about altering the acoustic sound of the guitar with a UST. I have yet to play a guitar with a UST that I liked very much.

Speaking of the PUTW, are you referring to #54 or the Dynamic Duo? I would be quite interested in the #54 (which PUTW describes as being "very feedback resistant") since there is no UST.

Maybe I just need to get over it and go with a UST/SBT combo. I guess I am very concerned with the sound of the guitar under my ear. I should probably be more concerned with the amplified sound since that is the primary purpose, but the violinist in me just can't get past it. The acoustic sound is what I will hear and what I care about most.

And thanks for the installation offer. No where near Temecula (Denver, CO) or I would take you up on it! Would love to hear any more thoughts you may have. Thanks.

[Wadcutter]

Scoober, You may benefit by surfing around this website, http://shorelinemusic.com/amplification/kk.shtml particularly the links under Pickups/Preamps. Loads of great info there. And if you do decide to order from Shoreline, they are a very reputable dealer and have been around a long, long time. And they offer free shipping! Best of luck finding the best gear for your particular situation.

[SteveS]

Originally Posted by ScooberJake

..... But the speakers are mounted on the wall behind us a....

That is an ideal method to introduce feedback problems.

Originally Posted by ScooberJake

.....
The Wavelength does look like a good potential option. ...... I have yet to play a guitar with a UST that I liked very much.......

Are you saying plugged in or not. If you are talking about just acoustic, it is likely due to the guitar, not the UST. If you are talking plugged in - I'm with you. The Wavelength is the best sounding UST I have used. But it is a UST.
The thing to keep in mind is that only one or 2 people in the congregation will feel that way. 99.9% probably could not hear the difference between the worst UST and the the best PU system. 100% will notice feedback.

Originally Posted by ScooberJake

.
Speaking of the PUTW, are you referring to #54 or the Dynamic Duo? I would be quite interested in the #54 (which PUTW describes as being "very feedback resistant") since there is no UST.

The Dynamic Duo - It has a very thin UST paired with the #27 and a on board preamp. It is not on the website. You have to call and ask for it.

Originally Posted by ScooberJake

....The acoustic sound is what I will hear and what I care about most...

Based on that, I strongly recommend the PUTW Dynamic Duo. I have not heard any PU system come as close to a mic'd sound and I have heard many PU's.

[ScooberJake]

Originally Posted by SteveS

Are you saying plugged in or not. If you are talking about just acoustic, it is likely due to the guitar, not the UST. If you are talking plugged in - I'm with you. The Wavelength is the best sounding UST I have used. But it is a UST.

Well, I guess I was referring to both. I haven't really loved the sound of anything I have plugged in. But I also have yet to find an acoustic/electric that I really like when played straight acoustic. Not sure yet if that is a coincidence or if I don't like the acoustic sound once a UST is installed. (Yes, I know a lot of people say I shouldn't be able to hear a difference. But with the limited data I have from playing at GC the past couple weeks that is one possible conclusion.)

Thanks again for the advice. I definitely am concerned about feedback. If I end up needing to put in a pickup I will consider the Wavelength and the Dynamic Duo, depending on budget.