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  #16  
Old 08-28-2017, 11:00 AM
jim1960 jim1960 is offline
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You're probably right, but for what I do (hobby only) CD stereo quality isn't as important to me as much as not picking up as much left hand on the back of the neck movement noises and other annoying string noises. I've used those annoying noises to help motivate me to better my playing technique and it has gotten better, but moving the mics to the lower bout has enabled me to "put my head in the sand" on the matter a bit, lol.
If you're going to put two mics on the lower bout, you may as well use just one since the second mic is adding anything different.

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Btw, using a low pass filter in eq post recording does help get rid of some of that "ambient" room noise. Too much of it is no good though...
I think we've discussed this before. It's a really bad solution to the problem. It's akin to using a sledgehammer to get rid of a mark on the wall. The two things you're advocating here (doubling micing the lower bout and rolling off the high frequencies) lead to flat mono recordings. I'd encourage you to spend a lot more time experimenting.
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  #17  
Old 08-28-2017, 04:28 PM
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If you're going to put two mics on the lower bout, you may as well use just one since the second mic is adding anything different.



I think we've discussed this before. It's a really bad solution to the problem. It's akin to using a sledgehammer to get rid of a mark on the wall. The two things you're advocating here (doubling micing the lower bout and rolling off the high frequencies) lead to flat mono recordings. I'd encourage you to spend a lot more time experimenting.
I'll try it, nothing to lose. I do split the recording and pan a bit left and right for each track though.
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  #18  
Old 08-28-2017, 04:44 PM
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Doug Young Doug Young is offline
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Barry, it might help to read up on stereo mic placement - there's a bit of science behind it. But it comes down to having the sound out of each speaker/headphone being a bit different. The differences can be time/phase, volume, frequency response, or even just different sounds (left side of an orchestra - or guitar! vs right side). Placing 2 mics side by side aimed the same way won't do much unless they're very different-sounding mics, and even then, that's not the usual approach to stereo. You can however, place 2 cardiods close together, but aimed 90 degrees apart, and get XY, a very standard stereo approach. That works because the sound reaches each mic on a different axis, so the mics pick up sounds from different directions differently. If you like the sound of the lower bout, you might try XY there. Usually the lower bout alone is rather boxy, but all that matters is if you like it.

Recording is kind of funny because it's really quite simple - at least solo guitar is- if you have the right gear, the right room, and just set everything up right. Just follow the basic rules and it will work well. But there are almost infinite ways to do it wrong, which is where people end up "not having fun". If you have a decent sounding room (a HUGE if - this is almost always the BIG issue in home recording), decent gear (a Zoom is plenty good enough), and just put the mics in the right place, it should be as easy as falling off a log, as they say, and all that's left is to worry about playing something worth recording - usually the biggest challenge for most of us.
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  #19  
Old 08-29-2017, 06:02 PM
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Originally Posted by Doug Young View Post
Barry, it might help to read up on stereo mic placement - there's a bit of science behind it. But it comes down to having the sound out of each speaker/headphone being a bit different. The differences can be time/phase, volume, frequency response, or even just different sounds (left side of an orchestra - or guitar! vs right side). Placing 2 mics side by side aimed the same way won't do much unless they're very different-sounding mics, and even then, that's not the usual approach to stereo. You can however, place 2 cardiods close together, but aimed 90 degrees apart, and get XY, a very standard stereo approach. That works because the sound reaches each mic on a different axis, so the mics pick up sounds from different directions differently. If you like the sound of the lower bout, you might try XY there. Usually the lower bout alone is rather boxy, but all that matters is if you like it.

Recording is kind of funny because it's really quite simple - at least solo guitar is- if you have the right gear, the right room, and just set everything up right. Just follow the basic rules and it will work well. But there are almost infinite ways to do it wrong, which is where people end up "not having fun". If you have a decent sounding room (a HUGE if - this is almost always the BIG issue in home recording), decent gear (a Zoom is plenty good enough), and just put the mics in the right place, it should be as easy as falling off a log, as they say, and all that's left is to worry about playing something worth recording - usually the biggest challenge for most of us.
I have the two mics in XY. I'd rather deal with a little boxy sound from the lower end then the constant noise of my hand movement on the back of the neck and other string noises which occur at times are annoying. I'm always conscious of my technique and try to improve, but at 62 I'm not planning on going to Carnegie Hall anytime soon.
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  #20  
Old 08-29-2017, 06:11 PM
Brent Hahn Brent Hahn is offline
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I have the two mics in XY. I'd rather deal with a little boxy sound from the lower end then the constant noise of my hand movement...
Something else you can try is XY but vertical rather than horizontal. Both mics pointing 14th-fret-ish but one 45º up (at the upper bout) and the other 45º down. When it comes to stereo, your ears won't know the difference between high/low and left/right.
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  #21  
Old 08-29-2017, 08:30 PM
jim1960 jim1960 is offline
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Something else you can try is XY but vertical rather than horizontal. Both mics pointing 14th-fret-ish but one 45º up (at the upper bout) and the other 45º down. When it comes to stereo, your ears won't know the difference between high/low and left/right.
I've never seen that done, so perhaps I'm wrong about this, but when you mic X/Y horizontally you're getting a mic on the lower bout and on the fretboard. The result is a warmer sound from the lower bout mic and a brighter sound from the upper bout mic. I've been under the impression the tonal differences are a big part of the stereo sound we hear in that arrangement.

Doing the same thing vertically eliminates the tonal differences since you'd have both mics catching sound from the same point on the guitar. Plus, I think you'd have the added issue of emphasizing short reflections off the floor due to the placement of the mic pointing down.

Like I said though, I've never tried this, so I my intuition might be totally wrong. I'm curious as to what others think of that mic setup.
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2015 Circle Strings Parlor shedua/western red cedar
2009 Bamburg JSB Signature Baritone macassar ebony/carpathian spruce
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  #22  
Old 08-29-2017, 08:36 PM
Brent Hahn Brent Hahn is offline
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I've never seen that done, so perhaps I'm wrong about this, but...
Aaahhh, what was I thinking, you're right, it'll never work. In a million years. Forget I said it. Don't try it. :-)

Late edit: Here's a link to a downloadable zip file containing an mp3 and a photo.

THE LINK.

The mics are Sennheiser 416's, the guitar's a 70's Ibanez, the room's a mess, and there's a nasty tick at around :09 -- I was too lazy to go in and play it again.

As for mono compatibility, it's dead on (which only XY will be at that short distance). And FWIW, I have no idea which mic wound up on which channel.

Last edited by Brent Hahn; 08-29-2017 at 09:46 PM.
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  #23  
Old 08-29-2017, 09:49 PM
Rudy4 Rudy4 is offline
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Originally Posted by jim1960 View Post
I've never seen that done, so perhaps I'm wrong about this, but when you mic X/Y horizontally you're getting a mic on the lower bout and on the fretboard. The result is a warmer sound from the lower bout mic and a brighter sound from the upper bout mic. I've been under the impression the tonal differences are a big part of the stereo sound we hear in that arrangement.

Doing the same thing vertically eliminates the tonal differences since you'd have both mics catching sound from the same point on the guitar. Plus, I think you'd have the added issue of emphasizing short reflections off the floor due to the placement of the mic pointing down.

Like I said though, I've never tried this, so I my intuition might be totally wrong. I'm curious as to what others think of that mic setup.
Check #6 in the following mic placement guide:
https://www.cakewalk.com/Support/Kno...coustic-Guitar
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  #24  
Old 08-29-2017, 09:55 PM
Brent Hahn Brent Hahn is offline
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Originally Posted by Rudy4 View Post
Check #6 in the following mic placement guide:
https://www.cakewalk.com/Support/Kno...coustic-Guitar
Similar to my XY thing, but there's a good chance arpeggios and slow strums will seem to go side-to-side, which can be cool and/or distracting.
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  #25  
Old 08-29-2017, 10:14 PM
jim1960 jim1960 is offline
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Like I said though, I've never tried this, so I my intuition might be totally wrong.
And I was totally wrong. Thanks for the links and info.
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2023 Iris ND-200 maple/adi
2017 Circle Strings 00 bastogne walnut/sinker redwood
2015 Circle Strings Parlor shedua/western red cedar
2009 Bamburg JSB Signature Baritone macassar ebony/carpathian spruce
2004 Taylor XXX-RS indian rosewood/sitka spruce
1988 Martin D-16 mahogany/sitka spruce

along with some electrics, zouks, dulcimers, and banjos.

YouTube
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  #26  
Old 08-30-2017, 08:40 AM
Brent Hahn Brent Hahn is offline
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And I was totally wrong. Thanks for the links and info.
And I thank you, sir.
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  #27  
Old 08-30-2017, 04:41 PM
StevenL StevenL is offline
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I got the recording bug a few years back. Spent a LOT of time studying up on it and then started buying stuff... nice interface, mic pre's, mics, monitors, etc. By the time I got pretty good at tracking and mixing, I discovered all the focus on each piece of the music was killing my enjoyment of playing the music. It's all just sitting unused in a spare room now. When I listen to music now, my mind starts picking apart the mix, listening for reverb trails or traces of compression, how parts are eq'd, etc. So, beware lest it happen to you. Just kidding, sorta. A stint with recording your own music will change how you perceive and enjoy it, maybe for the better in your case, hopefully.
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