Luthiers outsourcing work

[The Bard Rocks]

If a buyer knows ahead of time what is farmed out and what is done in-house, there should never be reason for complaint. After he knew the rules before he started playing the game. I don't believe in taking the paintbrush from the artist - let him do what he feels he does best as long as he is upfront about it. If I am unhappy, I will find a builder who is more concerned about doing it all himself and having a product that is ALL his, even though it may mean he builds a few less during the year.

At the end of the year, the builder has to earn enough money to pay his bills and have something left over - and if he can do that with 10, or 20 guitars, doesn't necessarily mean too overly much to me, so long as I know ahead of time who is doing what.

[SiliconValleySJ]

Originally Posted by AnthonyLattanze

Who do you use, Mark?

He uses Tony Ferguson in Michigan for finish. I've also had Tony do re-finish work and its top notch. Tony does finishing for Mark, the Kinniard brothers, Kent Everett, John Mayes and Del Langejans (both pre-retirement of course), and many others. I'd easily trust him.

On the west coast, Ervin Somogyi and his some of his ex-apprentices (and others like Kevin Corcoran) use Addam Stark in Santa Cruz. Addam is great too--does both nitro and poly I believe. James Goodall has another person closer to him along the coast who does his finish, but I never got the name from him.

[murrmac123]

Originally Posted by JSDenvir

I was interviewing Dave Collins of Ann Arbor guitars a while back, and was surprised to discover that some well-known builders outsource their setups as well.

Originally Posted by justonwo

I've received luthier built guitars that have imperfect fret leveling and it's annoying.

Dave Collins and his business partner also host group classes from time to time to teach the finer points of fretwork and set-up.

[JoeCharter]

I personally prefer that the luthier outsources as little as possible. To me, it's not so much about the quality of the outcome but I like the idea of an instrument that was built by one person only.

That being said, if I find a guitar that I really like and the finishing was done by a third party, I wouldn't be thrilled but it wouldn't be a deal breaker.

As for the setup, if it's well done I don't really care.

Very interesting discussion. It's a subject that I was aware of, but hadn't paid much attention to since my main guitar interests lie in vintage instruments.

Originally Posted by JoeCharter

I personally prefer that the luthier outsources as little as possible. To me, it's not so much about the quality of the outcome but I like the idea of an instrument that was built by one person only.

Agree.

Originally Posted by JoeCharter

That being said, if I find a guitar that I really like and the finishing was done by a third party, I wouldn't be thrilled but it wouldn't be a deal breaker.

Also agree.

[Bruce Sexauer]

Mau's take is about right, IMO. I have been pursuing my thin yet complete finish since I started building, 50 years ago. I continue to get better at it with every guitar! It's not just the finish itself improving at this point so much as the ease of the process. Finishing itself is a skill set broad enough to be a stand alone profession, and the learning curve is petty steep, and failure costly. On the the hand, no one cares as much about the finish as the luthier whose reputation rides on the outcome. ONLY the luthier really understands the part the finish plays in the whole piece.

Consider that a typical profession nitro finish is very close to 10% of the thickness of a guitar plate, and that the nitro is not only heavier than the wood, but also is a relatively rigid film that actually increases the stiffness of the plate. Not only that, but it is far harder than the wood itself which affects the nature of the sound radiating off the soundboard. There are many parameters that can be adjusted through film control and material choices. An uneven thickness changes the way energy moves through the guitar. Once a builder sees how much difference the finish makes, it is hard for me to understand how they can throw it to the wind.

Set up is another thing. Unless one undertakes a repair concession for an extended time, one's set up experience is pretty much limited to one's own output, and that means it takes many guitars to acquire the skills needed to do first class set-up work. There are technicians pretty much everywhere who have acquired this skill set, and set-up makes or breaks a guitar. Not that I have ever used such a service . . . but I'd have been ahead of the game if I had, early on.

[jaymarsch]

Most of the luthiers that I know that have outsourced some aspect of their work have not done so without a lot of consideration for who they are hiring to do the work. I know that when I was touring Kenny Hill's shop for example, he introduced me to the French polish specialist who does the finish for his guitars. It was amazing to watch the work being done. Of course it was happening in Kenny's shop so he had some control over what was being done.

I guess it comes down to trust, respect and reputation. As a customer, I feel that if I have done my homework in researching and selecting a luthier and there is good communication, I will trust that they are overseeing the work and the relationship. After all, it is their reputation that is on the line.

Knowing that a luthier is outsourcing some aspect of the work would not be a deterrent for me if I my experience of the guitars they build is positive and what I am looking for.

Best,
Jayne

[JamesO]

I'm surprised to heard that professional finishes are coming back at .010" or more thick. The ones I'm familiar with are closer to .005".

[Pat Foster]

I'm of the do-it-all-myself camp. It's the only way I feel that I've built the guitar, especially with setup. It's such a major part of the character of the guitar that I feel like the instrument wouldn't be my work if someone else did the setup. Stefan Grossman played one of my guitars recently; its owner said he absolutely loved it and remarked that it was so easy to play. How could I mess with that?

I wonder when someone will start taking in voicing for builders.

Pat

[Silly Moustache]

I'm told (by one of the finest luthiers in the UK, that the laws about nitro finishing are very strict here, and so many outsource to a chap who specialises in it ... although he works in a shed at the bottom of his small backyard.

[Silly Moustache]

I'm told (by one of the finest luthiers in the UK, that the laws about nitro finishing are very strict here, and so many outsource to a chap who specialises in it ... although he works in a shed at the bottom of his small backyard.

[Ozzy the dog]

Originally Posted by Silly Moustache

... although he works in a shed at the bottom of his small backyard.

There's a worm at the bottom of my garden...

Personally I prefer to do everything myself (flaws and all) but I just make for myself.

If someone was paying for the product then they deserve the best they can get so if someone could provide a part of the build better than I could then the customer should have that.

This is not an uncommon practice - I've just bought a Toyota car that has a BMW engine (although I'm not sure if that supports my last statement or not)

[murrmac123]

Originally Posted by Silly Moustache

I'm told (by one of the finest luthiers in the UK, that the laws about nitro finishing are very strict here, and so many outsource to a chap who specialises in it ... although he works in a shed at the bottom of his small backyard.

Stefan Sobell has always outsourced his finishing (I am not inferring btw that he is the luthier to whom you refer), and the finisher who does his guitars also does the finishing for several other UK luthiers.

This thread is kind of intriguing for me ... I know next to nothing about finishing, but when it comes to fretwork and set-up, I flatter myself that I can hold my head up in any company, and I would have to agree with a previous poster, having had many boutique builds pass through my hands, that most builders would benefit enormously from taking an intensive course in how to set up a guitar correctly.

Their woodworking abilities , and their voicings, are invariably stellar ... the fretwork and set-ups ... not so much.

[Guitars44me]

Another very interesting thread!

Personally, having owned dozens of high-end instruments, I am perfectly happy to take them all to my good friend Tim Luranc, for inspection, and set up. Tim did the fret install and set up on literally thousands of Taylor guitars! Three or four a day five days a week for many years! He was the Head Luthier in charge of the R.Taylor shop and is now Senior Repair Tech at Taylor El Cajon.

It is rare that he does not find something that could be better, and when he is done they play like warm butter.

Also, I must say that Tony Furguson, the gentleman who does finishes for the Kinnaird brothers and many others is a wizard! And I believe his fine finishes are about 4 mils thick! Certainly not the 10 mils mentioned above. The Kinnairds I have played have all sounded WONDERFUL.

The object to me is to have the best sounding, playing and looking axe I can!

It makes playing much more fun!

Cheers

Paul

[Tony Vines]

Originally Posted by Pat Foster

I'm of the do-it-all-myself camp. It's the only way I feel that I've built the guitar, especially with setup. It's such a major part of the character of the guitar that I feel like the instrument wouldn't be my work if someone else did the setup. Stefan Grossman played one of my guitars recently; its owner said he absolutely loved it and remarked that it was so easy to play. How could I mess with that?

I wonder when someone will start taking in voicing for builders.

Pat

Well said Pat. Personally, I am a guitar builder not a guitar broker.