Luthiers outsourcing work

[JSDenvir]

As far as I know, it's pretty common knowledge that a fair number of builders outsource their finishing, be it spraying nitro on the whole guitar or french polishing their tops.

But I was interviewing Dave Collins of Ann Arbor guitars a while back, and was surprised to discover that some well-known builders outsource their setups as well. Dave made the point that it's not unlike a surgeon using an anesthesiologist rather than trying to do everything himself.

I can understand his point of view. After all, Dave is one of the best repair guys in the country, and does as many setups in a week as a busy builder would do in a year.

One could make the case that a builder is simply trying to deliver a superior product to his customers.

So I guess my question is, what do you folks feel is acceptable? Do you draw the line somewhere? Is a line even necessary?

I'll freely admit to having my fretboards cnc'd, because I figure that can give me a degree of
precision that I could never achieve on my own. But I do finish and set up my guitars myself (with my prices, I can't afford to outsource it :-). I'm not sure I'd feel comfortable doing it any other way.

Opinions welcome. From both builders and buyers.

Steve

[justonwo]

My primary concern is the final product. As long as the builders are honest about how they run their business, I'm not concerned. Frankly, I appreciate when guys, for example, have their final fret leveling done by Plek. The results are flawless. I've received luthier built guitars that have imperfect fret leveling and it's annoying.

[El Conquistador]

Originally Posted by JSDenvir

Dave made the point that it's not unlike a surgeon using an anesthesiologist rather than trying to do everything himself.

Opinions welcome. From both builders and buyers.

Steve

Once I have satisfied myself that my doctor has conducted many successful operations with the results I want, I do not question her methods. If he thinks he should employ an anesthesiologist rather than pass the gas her/himself, I, not having a medical degree, do not try to tell him how to achieve the result.

Steve

[iim7V7IM7]

Luthiers have many different ways of working. For example:

- Some build one at a time and others in batches in parallel
- Some builders build solo and others have assistants/apprentices
- Some use CNC and others use basic wood shop tools and fixtures
- Some build with molds and others up in the air
- Some build top up and others back up
- Some use hide glue and others use titebond
- Some make their own dish and others purchase them from supply houses
- Some bend their sides with Fox benders and others just use a hot pipe
- Some hand carve their necks and others have them manufactured for them
- Some make their own linings and others purchase theirs
- Some make their own marquetry and others purchase theirs
- Some do their own inlay and others purchase theirs from inlay specialists
- Some make their own buttons and bridge pins and others purchase them
- Some do their own finishing and others use finishers
- Some luthiers perform hand set ups and others use a plek

I personally prefer the solo, one-at-a-time, vertically integrated artisan approach. However, there are many paths to a great guitar. Each luthier has their own methods.

[AnthonyLattanze]

I can't wait to get to a point where I can sub out finish work. I'd like to live a long life, chemical free.

[JSDenvir]

Originally Posted by AnthonyLattanze

I can't wait to get to a point where I can sub out finish work. I'd like to live a long life, chemical free.

Hey Anthony, you may want to give French polishing a try. So long as you use straight alcohol rather than denatured, all the ingredients are natural. The worst thing that can happen to you is getting drunk :-)

Steve

[Alan Carruth]

Outsourcing has always been done in the lutherie world. Dante has a character in 'Purgatorio' (iirc) who was a maker of parts for musical instruments. Lute roses were usually cut by specialists, and, up until recently, Spanish guitars were mostly French polished by local women who did nothing else. For that matter, Sean Connery trained as a French polisher before he got into the movies, although he probably worked mostly on furniture. All the finest shell inlay of a hundred years ago was done by specialists. The longer I think the more examples I can come up with.

Personally, I do everything I can myself. Partly I'm sure it's a function of coming into the craft in the late sixties, when the 'self sufficiency' ethic was 'in'. Of course, back then there was no source for pre-cut fretboards and so on, so you pretty much had to learn how to do it all. Some folks did get finish work done in auto shops, particularly the solid body makers, of course. In the end, I like making things, so I do. I guess I'm just an old hippie at heart.

[Mark Hatcher]

I send my guitars out for finish. I'll never be as good as my finisher is and frankly I don't see anyone who does better. Additionally, I don't need to worry about OSHA requirements and the space in my studio.
French polish I do in house. I am very good at that but, a customer needs to appreciate the care and feeding of French polish before I'll do it.

Mark

[AnthonyLattanze]

Originally Posted by Mark Hatcher

I send my guitars out for finish. I'll never be as good as my finisher is and frankly I don't see anyone who does better. Additionally, I don't need to worry about OSHA requirements and the space in my studio.

French polish I do in house. I am very good at that but, a customer needs to appreciate the care and feeding of French polish before I'll do it.



Mark

Who do you use, Mark?

[AnthonyLattanze]

Originally Posted by JSDenvir

Hey Anthony, you may want to give French polishing a try. So long as you use straight alcohol rather than denatured, all the ingredients are natural. The worst thing that can happen to you is getting drunk :-)



Steve

It's on the horizon, possibly. There's a lot of other factors, of course. I don't blame anyone that subs out the finish work. I'd rather be making dust than inhaling fumes.

[Mark Hatcher]

Originally Posted by AnthonyLattanze

Who do you use, Mark?

I mix my own with Everclear alcohol and blond shellac flakes.

Edit: I mistakenly read your question as what not who. I use Tony Ferguson.

[Tim McKnight]

I don't outsource anything except the manufacture of tuners, fret wire, strings and cases if those components even count? Finish is one step I would like to farm out but my OCD side won't allow me to relinquish that control to anyone else.

[Bruce Sexauer]

Originally Posted by Tim McKnight

I don't outsource anything except the manufacture of tuners, fret wire, strings and cases if those components even count? Finish is one step I would like to farm out but my OCD side won't allow me to relinquish that control to anyone else.

Exactly what Tim said, except that it is pretty much inconceivable to me that anyone could consistently get as even and thin a varnish as I do. Doesn't mean they're not out there, but I doubt I could afford them if they are, and they are probably busy making guitars anyway.

[jt1]

Originally Posted by Bruce Sexauer

Exactly what Tim said, except that it is pretty much inconceivable to me that anyone could consistently get as even and thin a varnish as I do.

This.

First, the guy a majority of individual luthiers use to finish their guitars doesn't use varnish.

Second, the fellow does a nice, very thick, acceptable finish. My favorite luthier once told me that the finish accounts for up to one third of an instrument's sound. After attending many guitar festivals and sampling 100s, if not 1000s, of guitars, I agree. A lot of guitars not only look alike, they sound alike.

We all like what we like and many people build wonderful guitars, regardless of who finishes them. But, I'd not purchase a guitar finished by anyone but the luthier who builds my guitar.

[JSDenvir]

Originally Posted by Tim McKnight

Finish is one step I would like to farm out but my OCD side won't allow me to relinquish that control to anyone else.

Hey Tim, I've always loved this line.

"I have CDO. It's like OCD, but with the letters in the proper alphabetical order as they should be."

Steve