#16
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One set of exercises that is very helpful is this: ----0--- --0---0- 0------- -------- -------- 0-------- ----0--- --0---0- 0------- -------- -------- --0------ ----0--- --0---0- 0------- -------- -------- ----0---- ----0--- --0---0- 0------- -------- -------- ------0-- The idea is to keep the arpeggio going with the fingers as quarter notes, but move the beat where you play the thumb stroke. Then move the thumb stroke to the "and" of each of the beat. Then do multiple thumb strokes. Then vary the arpeggio. Lots of combinations and each one will force you to learn a new type of dependence. Bryan Last edited by Bryan T; 06-15-2009 at 05:08 PM. |
#17
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Thanks everyone for the time to put so much help on the thread. Every little helps.
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Last edited by Coke_zero; 06-15-2009 at 07:03 PM. Reason: Because I can't spell! |
#18
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Keep it up!
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#19
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I think independence is still the goal, though we develop lots of different dependencies along the way
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#20
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I've only seen a few drummers that come close to independence. I remember one drummer that could keep a rhythm with his right hand and feet and then play against it in any different tempo with his left hand. Absolutely blew my mind. It is pretty embarrassing the number of fingerstyle players who can't play the tab example I posted above. They get so locked in that the thumb is on the one and the three that they can't do anything else. And I see that example as a very basic stepping stone in developing the right hand. Bryan |
#21
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Perhaps I should have used the term practical independence which I think of as more of a "state of mind", i.e. being able to play complex sequences without consciously thinking about the mechanics involved. That probably coincides with a "broad set of dependencies", as you mentioned.
__________________
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#22
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I've had a lot of frustrated students who attempt to learn a fingerstyle piece by learning the thumb part and then the fingers part. Then they try to combine them and don't understand why it isn't coming together easily. "But I can do them separately without any issues!" Bryan |
#23
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__________________
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#24
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I've taken workshops with Pierre Bensusan where he spends a lot of time teaching finger independence. He's teaching exercises similar to yours only more intricate, and calling out changes as everyone plays. That requires independent control of your digits, I think. I'd bet Tommy Emmanuel would not say that he's been working 50 years on finger "dependence" to play an arrangement like this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mYzajpeAWuA Martin Taylor is using finger independence here, IMO: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JrJ7Gq394hk |
#25
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ahhh, the right hand. Who was it again who said "Your left hand is what you know, your right hand is who you are"?. How very true!
__________________
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#26
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That's how I learned to do these things, at least. Quote:
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This is one of aspect of guitar playing that seems a lot more complicated than it is to folks who are just starting out. If you break it down to the base elements and figure out which things need to line up, I think it is easier to do than trying to tackle it all at once. Bryan |
#27
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Something like a Stevie Wonder tune would need a lot of attention on the bass line and the clavinet part in order to bring them out in the arrangement. Bryan |
#28
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Bryan,
I get your point about dependence. If all you are trying to do is "cement" a particular set of notes into your muscle memory, so you play it that way every time, then it's "dependent". If you have the ability to vary an order of notes, by commanding a finger or thumb to play out of an order that may be in your muscle memory, on the spot, improvising as it were, it's "independent". It's my impression that that was what Pierre was getting at with those exercises; not creating several sets of muscle memory motions, but having independent control of each digit so you can play any order, on command. I guess we took different things away from the workshop. But, that's cool. |
#29
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Earlier, I mentioned a drummer that could play in two different tempi at the same time. That, to me, is an example of independence. The hands are doing things that are unrelated. I also mentioned working on polyrhythms. Playing a septuplet against a pulse isn't hard. Playing a triplet against a pulse isn't hard. Now play 7:3 against that pulse. If you have independence, I think it should be pretty easy. If you find yourself working through the logic of where the two subdivisions line up, and internalizing that, then you are working at learned dependence. Ultimately, it sounds the same to the listener, but the mechanics of developing the skill are different. I get the sense that you think I'm pushing developing a set of patterns. I kind of am (more like motions), but it is a very large set of learned dependencies. I think Pierre was pushing for the students to a) broaden their palette of what they might want to hear/play and b) develop the mechanics to pull it off. In the class that I did with him he approached this very much from a learned dependence perspective. "Now move the thumb to the same beat as the pinky finger." This is a very interesting discussion. Bryan |
#30
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Interesting discussion, indeed. When I think about the tunes I play where there are multiple moving lines, and how I learned them, I learned them just as you described. What has to happen at the same time and what has to happen in between, and I made my fingers do that until they didn't forget. I guess I see that as learned "independence". Not just to be contrary, though. I'm making lines happen that are independent of one another, in that they have their own direction and flow. But ask me to play each one separately, and I'd fall flat, at least on first try, because that's not how I learned it. But I just chalk that up to my lack of ability.
Maybe Martin Taylor, and Tommy and Pierre and Stanley Jordan, and Pete Huttlinger and Phil Keaggy, etc. all learn dependence, it sure sounds like independence. Your point. Whatever it is, it's cool to be able to play multiple lines at once. |