Are we in for a bad winter, or is all the talk just talk?

[duff beer]

Originally Posted by Davis Webb

Wind power is viable, its just that here in the Canada/US land mass, we are backward, kind of hoping for a revival of 1952.

Where is it viable? Can you show evidence of even one wind turbine that can pay for itself without a subsidy?

Just one...

[KevWind]

Originally Posted by duff beer

Where is it viable? Can you show evidence of even one wind turbine that can pay for itself without a subsidy?

Just one...

Actually most private personal wind turbines are very cost effective. And pay for themselves within 6 months to 1 year with subsidies, or in 3 to 8 years with out subsidy.

The question is,.... is just straight " $ cost" the only factor and question we should be asking in determining "viable", which of course begins to circle back to pollution, environment health ect. so rather than rehash that:


You do realize one could ask the exact same question about coal, oil, and nuclear , as all have been heavily subsidized, making it very hard to determine what actual costs might have been without subsidy. Particularly if we factor in all comparative related added costs like ,pollution and health cost issues.

[duff beer]

Kev:

Do you just pull numbers out of the air or do you blindly believe every claim made by those opposed to traditional energy? It took me 30 seconds to find out that oil companies pay far, far more taxes than they receive in subsidies. It's not even close.

Please do the rest of the research yourself.

[SongwriterFan]

Here's a company that specializes in residential-sized windmills.

http://bergey.com/wind-school/reside...energy-systems

They claim 6-30 year payout times.

[flaggerphil]

"Are we in for a bad winter, or is all the talk just talk?"

You may be in for a bad winter. Me? Probably not so much...

[Nailpicker]

My biggest concern about wind power does not revolve around global warming(or not), or economics, but the fact that they kill hundreds of thousands of birds and are likely to kill more as the turbines become larger/taller and more numerous.

From Smithsonian: http://http://www.smithsonianmag.com...948154/?no-ist

It seems to me that there is nothing humans use, nothing they consume that doesn't impact the environment. It's just that each thing they use impacts the environment in different ways. We each define what is and is not an acceptable impact. There is little that we consume or produce that impacts in an "environmentally friendly" way, only an environmentally different way. We substitute one impact for another.

If we cut carbon emissions by 50%, but double our population, then the amount of carbon emissions created by this expanded population will likely be the same as before cutting by 50% (Just using general numbers for sake of illustrative simplicity). So back to where we started from in terms of carbon emissions. Of course talking about cutting emissions and doing things to benefit the environment is easy to do, is largely popular in some circles, and give people the warm and fuzzies that they are doing something noble, intellectual and generally wonderful. But talking about reducing global population to reduce consumption, reduce carbon emsissions, etc. is rarely if ever discussed. It's taboo. How dare anyone suggest my procreativity rights be curbed. How dare anyone discuss, suggest and come up with workable, non-coercive incentives for population reduction.

....Oooooh. I guess I just mentioned something taboo...sorry

[CoolerKing]

Originally Posted by PorkPieGuy

I live in the foothills of NC, and there's been a whole lotta talk about how bad this winter is going to be. I think that the prediction is more for ice than snow.

In the past, I've just ignored this sort of thing; however, we had so much out-of-the-ordinary snow last year, I can't help but at least take notice. In contrast, I actually saw an old timer meteorologist on TV several years ago (during a newscast nonetheless) say that there's really no way to accurately predict weather more than 3-4 days out. After that it's anyone's guess.


So what's your theory? Is there REALLY any accurate way to predict a bad winter that doesn't include putting beans in jar in August?

It was 48F in suburban Philly last weekend when I was visiting family. I think that was a record low for early September in the area. That can't be a good sign.

[duff beer]

Originally Posted by SongwriterFan

Here's a company that specializes in residential-sized windmills.

http://bergey.com/wind-school/reside...energy-systems

They claim 6-30 year payout times.

They state the cost of one is $48,000 to $65,000, and that there is no output when the wind is less than 7 mph, and that they are not suitable for urban areas. They also require an 80 - 140 foot tower.

For comparison, if you're carrying a 4% mortgage, putting that $65,000 against the mortgage instead will save you $2600 a year interest, every single year, or $78,000 over the life of a 30-year mortgage. At 5%, the savings are almost $100,000.

And those savings are 100% guaranteed, whether the wind blows or not.

[ahutt59]

Like I said before, the biggest issue with wind is not economics (which is a big issue) but rather supply side. They cannot provide power 24/7 (in fact they provide only a small amount of the time, which often fails to coincide with demand) which is what is required, be it personal or part of the grid. Until energy storage technologies come up to the task, wind or solar will remain problematic.

[LouieAtienza]

Originally Posted by Nailpicker

My biggest concern about wind power does not revolve around global warming(or not), or economics, but the fact that they kill hundreds of thousands of birds and are likely to kill more as the turbines become larger/taller and more numerous.

From Smithsonian: http://http://www.smithsonianmag.com...948154/?no-ist

It seems to me that there is nothing humans use, nothing they consume that doesn't impact the environment. It's just that each thing they use impacts the environment in different ways. We each define what is and is not an acceptable impact. There is little that we consume or produce that impacts in an "environmentally friendly" way, only an environmentally different way. We substitute one impact for another.

If we cut carbon emissions by 50%, but double our population, then the amount of carbon emissions created by this expanded population will likely be the same as before cutting by 50% (Just using general numbers for sake of illustrative simplicity). So back to where we started from in terms of carbon emissions. Of course talking about cutting emissions and doing things to benefit the environment is easy to do, is largely popular in some circles, and give people the warm and fuzzies that they are doing something noble, intellectual and generally wonderful. But talking about reducing global population to reduce consumption, reduce carbon emsissions, etc. is rarely if ever discussed. It's taboo. How dare anyone suggest my procreativity rights be curbed. How dare anyone discuss, suggest and come up with workable, non-coercive incentives for population reduction.

....Oooooh. I guess I just mentioned something taboo...sorry

Nothing taboo here... in fact, you can buy some carbon credits to justify you lavish lifestyle!

[LouieAtienza]

I have to say, around 1994-95 or so, I remember some of the worst winters imaginable, with snow piled 6 feet high on each side of my sidewalk, snowing almost every week, and minus temperatures. We had many winters like this before, and we'll have more in the future. We'll have a year with almost no snow, and hear claims of climate change. Then we'll have snow every week and hear claims of climate change. Of course climate changes. It does on most temperate zones in the Earth. Mother Nature really couldn't care what us humans do. It is human nature to think that we can control everything, including the weather. But it will chug along regardless of what we do. This is my opinion.

[Dru Edwards]

This morning I'm researching which winter tires I'm going to get. <sigh>

[LouieAtienza]

Originally Posted by dru edwards

this morning i'm researching which winter tires i'm going to get. <sigh>

m&s, m&s...

[E-man]

Originally Posted by fitness1

A bad winter in NC?? Trade you!

Everything is relative AND do what we did.... MOVE

Ohio is too damp and cold for us.... and we love NC....

What's keeping you in Michigan???