Ribbon Mics and Preamps

[Trevor B.]

Originally Posted by sdelsolray

A few things:

1) Passive vs. active ribbon mics - passive ribbons needs a lot of gain, so a preamp capable of providing it cleanly is needed. An Apogee Duet will do that. An active ribbon uses balanced phantom power similar to a condenser mic.

2) Cloudlifter - adds gain to a passive ribbon before the preamp, in essence making the passive ribbon mic an active one.

3) Front and back response - If you are going to use a ribbon for M/S recording, make sure the frequency response of the ribbon mic is the same for the front and the back. Some ribbon mics have different frequency responses on the front and back (e.g., AEA R92).

4) Storage - always store the ribbon mic vertically when not in use.

Ribbon mic to check out --> AEA N22

Any thoughts on how the AEA N22 compares to the AT 4080 and 4081?

[sdelsolray]

Originally Posted by Trevor B.

Any thoughts on how the AEA N22 compares to the AT 4080 and 4081?

No experience with those Audio Technica mics. The AEA N22 is quite nice. I've used an AEA R84 for many years, which is also a nice ribbon, but I will be replacing it with one or two N22.

[Cochese]

I have the Royer 121 and the Great River ME1NV. That combo works really well but is a bit pricey. That preamp was actually designed with the Royer in mind. My application is more for recording guitar amps though I do use the Royer for acoustic. The specs of the Duet show more than enough gain for the Royer. For mic'ing amps you don't need as much gain.

The Royer is a great mic but I usually combine it with a condenser for acoustic. By itself I find the Royer (even using the bright side) is a bit dull. When combined with another mic it fills in the notches that the other mic's have.

Before I bought either the Royer or the Great River Dan Kennedy who designed the Great River advised I get the mic first. That will make a bigger impact than the preamp.

Personally for acoustic my favorite mic was the AKG 414 TLII. 414's in general I like. You can make a lot of different mic's work if you know what you're doing and are a good player.

The best thing to do is try to audition a few mic's with your setup and find the one that sounds best to you.

[rockabilly69]

Originally Posted by Cochese

The Royer is a great mic but I usually combine it with a condenser for acoustic. By itself I find the Royer (even using the bright side) is a bit dull. When combined with another mic it fills in the notches that the other mic's have.

The Royer 121 is really all about guitar amps! For that, they are great.

[ChuckS]

Originally Posted by The Colonel

Doug,

I am eying the Royer line. I know they are expensive, but you know my penchant for stereo recording my acoustic, so I thought would be an excellent choice for a mid-side set up, even if I have to use one channel of my Rode Nt4 as the "mid."

Regards,

The Colonel

I don't have experience with high end ribbons, but I've done some experimenting with a 'lessor' ribbon mics in a mid-side recording setup. To me, I don't find MS recording very applicable/beneficial to a solo acoustic guitar.

If the mics are set back very far from the guitar, much of the guitar is in the ribbons null field and the only thing the ribbon hears is reflections. Without direct sound to the ribbon, it's not really a MS recording as there needs to be some 'common' sound reaching the ribbon and the mid mic for the adjustment of the stereo field. Not to say you can't get a pleasing recording with the mics at a distance; I just don't see it as MS.

If your mics are close enough such that the ribbon's null field includes only a portion of the guitar, and the ribbon gets some direct left and right info, adjustment of the stereo field works. However, it seems you have to be very close (6-12") from the guitar. For me, it was hard to keep the mid mic from hearing too much from the soundhole, or I had to place the MS mics in a location that didn't give me the overall sound of the guitar that I wanted, or the mics were just so close that they seemed to be in the way of my playing.

But, others have made it work. So, I don't know if my issues are common or not.

[muscmp]

Originally Posted by paulp1960

These Cloudlifter devices are meant to be great for ribbon mikes or even dynamic mikes.

They take 48 volt phantom power to give about 25 Db extra gain:

http://cloudmicrophones.com/cloud12/?page_id=222

The phantom power is not passed through to the microphone.

Made in the US as well.

i use the cloudlifter with my cascade fathead ribbons as well as with my shure sm57s. gives you the bump without the noise.

play music!

[rockabilly69]

Originally Posted by ChuckS

I don't have experience with high end ribbons, but I've done some experimenting with a 'lessor' ribbon mics in a mid-side recording setup. To me, I don't find MS recording very applicable/beneficial to a solo acoustic guitar.

If the mics are set back very far from the guitar, much of the guitar is in the ribbons null field and the only thing the ribbon hears is reflections. Without direct sound to the ribbon, it's not really a MS recording as there needs to be some 'common' sound reaching the ribbon and the mid mic for the adjustment of the stereo field. Not to say you can't get a pleasing recording with the mics at a distance; I just don't see it as MS.

If your mics are close enough such that the ribbon's null field includes only a portion of the guitar, and the ribbon gets some direct left and right info, adjustment of the stereo field works. However, it seems you have to be very close (6-12") from the guitar. For me, it was hard to keep the mid mic from hearing too much from the soundhole, or I had to place the MS mics in a location that didn't give me the overall sound of the guitar that I wanted, or the mics were just so close that they seemed to be in the way of my playing.

But, others have made it work. So, I don't know if my issues are common or not.

Sounds like you need to work a bit more with it. I have done hundreds of M/S recordings for solo acoustic guitar and I LOVE it, and don't experience any of the problems you are describing. It sounds as you might have needed more clean gain to get the mics back a little further and have them a little more sensitive. Or maybe it was just the ribbons you were using. Without seeing what you're doing it's hard for me to figure out what went wrong.

[Cochese]

Originally Posted by rockabilly69

The Royer 121 is really all about guitar amps! For that, they are great.

I believe I stated in my first post that I mainly use it for electric. Still it can be a good acoustic mic on its own or mixed with other miss. Ribbon mics "hear" the way we do so they are very full sounding and don't have the typical high end sheen condenser mics do. There are some nice samples of the R121 on an acoustic on the Royer site. The other advantage is that they take EQ really well as they are not adding extra artifacts on their own. It's also really easy to avoid the proximity effect by proper positioning.

[rockabilly69]

Originally Posted by Cochese

I believe I stated in my first post that I mainly use it for electric. Still it can be a good acoustic mic on its own or mixed with other miss. Ribbon mics "hear" the way we do so they are very full sounding and don't have the typical high end sheen condenser mics do. There are some nice samples of the R121 on an acoustic on the Royer site. The other advantage is that they take EQ really well as they are not adding extra artifacts on their own. It's also really easy to avoid the proximity effect by proper positioning.

I've recorded an hour live set with a 121 in front of one of my resonators and it sounded pretty good, especially the way it rolled off the top end, that's what I like and dislike about it On resos they sound good, for the same reason they sound good on a guitar amp, they like speakers, and loud sources! For acoustic guitars, I prefer the Cloud, which seems to have a bit more in the extended high end, not like a good condenser though. To each his own, and there are many different ways to skin a cat so to say!

[Ty Ford]

If you're using the AT 4080 or Rode NTR, you won't have any problems with level.

Here are two review. One for each mic.

AT4080

Rode NTR

Regards,

Ty Ford

[DesolationAngel]

FWIW, I have a 101 and a 121 rented at the moment... haven't done anything with the 121, yet, but tried a M/S recording with the 101 and a C42 (for the mid) last weekend and failed miserably. One thing to understand about the Royers (something someone alluded to earlier) is that the response front/back is quite different and that's because the ribbon is not hung symmetrically in the Royers (which is one of it's selling points for handling high SPLs from guitar amps). I'll be futzing with the 121 this weekend...

[Ty Ford]

Yes, I remember that.

Try one of these.

Regards,

Ty Ford

[Rick Shepherd]

Ive been jonesing for a nice ribbon to use with me avalon ad2022. That would be a great combo.