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  #1  
Old 03-18-2017, 03:47 PM
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Mr. Jelly Mr. Jelly is offline
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Default Repair or Replace Old Tops?

There are many people into old Martin guitars and allot of them have had the tops repaired. Some people say that repairing a badly damaged top is better than replacing it. To me it would make sense that a top that has allot or some repairs (more than minor) would have a restricted top. With added wood to hold cracks and the glue it has to have an impact to the sound in a major way. At least to me. If I want to buy a new guitar I pay attention to the top wood the bracing etc. Because I feel it makes a difference. My question is not about old Martins it's about the difference between repairing a damaged good sounding top or replacing it.

How can a badly damaged repaired top compete with a replaced top?
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Old 03-18-2017, 04:07 PM
Frank Ford Frank Ford is offline
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Indeed, that does sound logical, but it is surprising to see how much damage and repair a top can experience and still produce really good tone and volume.

In general I'd say that my primary objections to repairing a seriously broken top are in the area cost and appearance. Tone and longevity may not be the issue with even major crack repair, but the resultant loss of visual appeal can result in such a drop in resale value as to make the job unfeasible.


Cost of taking instruments apart to fix really bad damage can be more than their total value. So, of course, can the cost of top replacement.

To answer your last question, the repaired top may well sound better than the replaced one, but it may also look so terrible that any number of players simply wouldn't give it a listen. . .
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Old 03-18-2017, 06:25 PM
RRuskin RRuskin is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Frank Ford View Post
Indeed, that does sound logical, but it is surprising to see how much damage and repair a top can experience and still produce really good tone and volume.

In general I'd say that my primary objections to repairing a seriously broken top are in the area cost and appearance. Tone and longevity may not be the issue with even major crack repair, but the resultant loss of visual appeal can result in such a drop in resale value as to make the job unfeasible.


Cost of taking instruments apart to fix really bad damage can be more than their total value. So, of course, can the cost of top replacement.

To answer your last question, the repaired top may well sound better than the replaced one, but it may also look so terrible that any number of players simply wouldn't give it a listen. . .
What do you think about this top? From a 1956 D-28. The rest of the guitar is in similar condition.
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Old 03-19-2017, 04:49 AM
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Thanks Frank. That's pretty much what I thought.
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Old 03-19-2017, 05:25 AM
tahoeguitar tahoeguitar is offline
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The wood in a top from 1956 is 60 years old. In my opinion (and many agree with me) old wood sounds good, and if it can be saved it should be. IMO you can't duplicate the taste of 15 year old scotch, and you can't duplicate the sound of really old wood. A retopped guitar is basically a new guitar with some older components, but it will not have the value of a new guitar and will lose most of the value of an old guitar. The exception to this is a conversion where an old Martin with a Brazilian body in either an archtop or classical design is converted to a flat top steelstring. These old guitars have relatively low collector appeal and therefore low value for their age. Their Brazilian rosewood bodies, though are highly sought after, and a re-top by a builder with a good reputation can increase the value.

That 56 Martin should be repaired. If the looks of it bothers you, sell it to me or someone like me and I'll make you a deal on building you a new one that looks just like it only no cracks. Somebody will want it even with the repair.
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Old 03-19-2017, 07:39 AM
Zigeuner Zigeuner is offline
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C.F. Martin formerly would sell parts for repair. You could buy bridges, fingerboards, whole semi-finished tops and even necks. I used to buy an occasional bridge or fingerboard from them but they ceased doing that in 2011. I bought their very last D-12-35 fingerboard back in 2010 and the lady that sold it to me said that it was the last one and that they were ceasing the selling of parts the following year.

The problem with changing a top on a vintage guitar is that you will not really know what it ultimately sounds like for several years after it's all done and refinished.

The above posters make the point clear that there is a financial aspect to consider. That is whether the expense will exceed the final value of the instrument.
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Old 03-19-2017, 03:33 PM
Alan Carruth Alan Carruth is offline
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It's possible in some cases to evaluate an old top acoustically and make a copy that will come quite close in sound to that. Simply starting with a piece of wood of the same species and density, and copying the bracing reasonably well can get you pretty close, and it's possible to do better with more measurements.

There's a lot of discussion about old wood and 'playing in'. Wood does change as it ages in predictable ways, some of which may not be easily replicable by heat treatment or other processes. These changes are 'small', unless you're talking about aging the wood for millennia, but, of course, so is the difference between a 'good' guitar and a 'great' one.

In my experience, having made and heard instruments of different sorts that have been made of certifiably 'old' wood, I don't think it makes any consistent difference. New instruments made of old wood, retrieved, say, from an old house or whatever, still sound like new instruments. That leads us to 'playing in'.

Playing in is controversial; some folks believe it happens and some don't. It's very difficult to do controlled experiments to figure out if it actually happens. Then, if you do, you need to figure out what it was that changed: more difficult experiments.

As Frank says, then, it mostly comes down to an economic decision. A really good repair person can do wonders with a pretty badly broken up top, making it very nearly perfect cosmetically, structurally, and acoustically, assuming all the parts are there and have not been too badly shredded. All it takes in money and time. If you've got C.F. Martin's first X-braced top then it's probably worth whatever it takes. If it's a 70's D-18, not so much. Of course, that 45 year old box is gaining in 'vintage' value every day, as is, for that matter, a 2015 D-18. Maybe some day some collector will lament the fact that you replaced the top on that instrument, reducing the value of it by X%. OTOH, maybe by then nobody will be playing guitars any more, and C.F.s first one will have no more value than a Walmart beater. Your crystal ball is as good as anybody's there.
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Old 03-19-2017, 05:04 PM
Zigeuner Zigeuner is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan Carruth View Post
It's possible in some cases to evaluate an old top acoustically and make a copy that will come quite close in sound to that. Simply starting with a piece of wood of the same species and density, and copying the bracing reasonably well can get you pretty close, and it's possible to do better with more measurements.

There's a lot of discussion about old wood and 'playing in'. Wood does change as it ages in predictable ways, some of which may not be easily replicable by heat treatment or other processes. These changes are 'small', unless you're talking about aging the wood for millennia, but, of course, so is the difference between a 'good' guitar and a 'great' one.

In my experience, having made and heard instruments of different sorts that have been made of certifiably 'old' wood, I don't think it makes any consistent difference. New instruments made of old wood, retrieved, say, from an old house or whatever, still sound like new instruments. That leads us to 'playing in'.

Playing in is controversial; some folks believe it happens and some don't. It's very difficult to do controlled experiments to figure out if it actually happens. Then, if you do, you need to figure out what it was that changed: more difficult experiments.

As Frank says, then, it mostly comes down to an economic decision. A really good repair person can do wonders with a pretty badly broken up top, making it very nearly perfect cosmetically, structurally, and acoustically, assuming all the parts are there and have not been too badly shredded. All it takes in money and time. If you've got C.F. Martin's first X-braced top then it's probably worth whatever it takes. If it's a 70's D-18, not so much. Of course, that 45 year old box is gaining in 'vintage' value every day, as is, for that matter, a 2015 D-18. Maybe some day some collector will lament the fact that you replaced the top on that instrument, reducing the value of it by X%. OTOH, maybe by then nobody will be playing guitars any more, and C.F.s first one will have no more value than a Walmart beater. Your crystal ball is as good as anybody's there.
I'm certain that re-topping a vintage guitar would cause a large dip in valuie. That said, it would make no difference at all if, like me, you never sell instruments anymore.
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Old 03-19-2017, 06:22 PM
John Arnold John Arnold is offline
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Quote:
it would make no difference at all if, like me, you never sell instruments anymore.
Unless you destroy them before you die or bury them with you, somebody else will own them someday.
If at all possible, I will repair a top instead of replacing. Crack repair with reasonable cleats (or none at all) does not seem to negatively affect the sound.
In my experience, most of the tops that are not repairable are those that have been sanded too thin.
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Old 03-20-2017, 08:10 AM
Ned Milburn Ned Milburn is offline
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FWIW, I repaired an early 70's Martin that was devastatingly damaged (worse than the photo) by having been driven over by a car. Sides, back, and top were repaired. After the repair, the owner (of 45 years) claimed it sounded just like it did before. All the repair was done through the sound-hole, without removing top or back.

After all is said and done, a guitar is just an "instrument" - a tool for making music and a repository for memories. Hence, the "value" is greatly dependent upon who possesses the instrument and what needs and attachments he/she has with the instrument. It is worth repairing for some people, and not for others.
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Old 03-20-2017, 01:11 PM
Alan Carruth Alan Carruth is offline
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The 'value' of an instrument is often very hard to determine. It's said that for a Strad a third of the value is 'artistic', another third resides in it's value as a historical object or collector's item, and the remaining third is musical. When I did more repairs I learned pretty quickly that the book value was only the smallest part in many instances. There was the German 'Waldelaute' that I got when another repair shop butchered it in trying to keep the work under the book value. The owner had bought it new in the early 20's, and wanted to put it up in her apartment as a memento of the old days. When it came back with the back half of the bridge cut away and replaced with some wood that didn't match, with glued-in plastic pins replacing the original carved bone ones, and the rose cut out and partly re-installed with Scotch tape, with the rest of the pieces in a baggie, she was upset. All she wanted to do was get it out of her sight and recoup the money she'd spend to have it vandalized. I bought it and, some time later, replaced the top and bridge to give it a new life, and sold it to an appreciative player. To anybody but her the extra investment would have been foolish, but there was much more than just an instrument involved. One could multiply examples almost endlessly, taking into account things like collector value and so on. Much of that is imponderable, and specific, but still real.
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Old 03-20-2017, 02:46 PM
Ned Milburn Ned Milburn is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan Carruth View Post
The 'value' of an instrument is often very hard to determine. It's said that for a Strad a third of the value is 'artistic', another third resides in it's value as a historical object or collector's item, and the remaining third is musical. When I did more repairs I learned pretty quickly that the book value was only the smallest part in many instances. There was the German 'Waldelaute' that I got when another repair shop butchered it in trying to keep the work under the book value. The owner had bought it new in the early 20's, and wanted to put it up in her apartment as a memento of the old days. When it came back with the back half of the bridge cut away and replaced with some wood that didn't match, with glued-in plastic pins replacing the original carved bone ones, and the rose cut out and partly re-installed with Scotch tape, with the rest of the pieces in a baggie, she was upset. All she wanted to do was get it out of her sight and recoup the money she'd spend to have it vandalized. I bought it and, some time later, replaced the top and bridge to give it a new life, and sold it to an appreciative player. To anybody but her the extra investment would have been foolish, but there was much more than just an instrument involved. One could multiply examples almost endlessly, taking into account things like collector value and so on. Much of that is imponderable, and specific, but still real.
Ouch!! Butchers shouldn't enter luthery...
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Old 03-23-2017, 06:55 PM
RRuskin RRuskin is offline
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This guitar is now on eBay.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1956-Martin-...oAAOSwWxNY0plI
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  #14  
Old 03-24-2017, 09:25 AM
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Mr. Jelly Mr. Jelly is offline
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Originally Posted by RRuskin View Post
How do guitars end up like this? There's got to be a story. Is a woman involved? I can see it for cheap junk guitars but for the better brands I have trouble figuring out why somebody would let it happen.
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Old 03-24-2017, 10:02 AM
RRuskin RRuskin is offline
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How do guitars end up like this? There's got to be a story. Is a woman involved? I can see it for cheap junk guitars but for the better brands I have trouble figuring out why somebody would let it happen.
This is the result of someone's car wreck.
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