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  #31  
Old 02-19-2018, 04:02 PM
charles Tauber charles Tauber is offline
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Originally Posted by jessupe View Post
I would encourage anyone who does their own varnish to look into it...
Where would you suggest that one start looking?
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  #32  
Old 02-19-2018, 05:37 PM
redir redir is offline
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+1 I'd be interested in knowing more about old school varnish.
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  #33  
Old 02-19-2018, 07:28 PM
jessupe jessupe is offline
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http://violinvarnish.com/

less than half way down, there is a recipe, one of millions, that can be used. This is "Hills" version.

http://keithhillharpsichords.com/on-...rument-making/

less than half way down is says "Recipe for making your own hill violin varnish"

5 ingredients

Linseed Oil, Rosin, Water, Wood Ashes (Yes, Wood Ashes), and Turpentine
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  #34  
Old 02-19-2018, 08:25 PM
jessupe jessupe is offline
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some other thoughts on this;

I don't want to give the impression that turpentine is a benign chemical that is "healthy" it has precautions just like other solvents, it is however a class 1 compared to lacquer which is class 2 in the world of "health" as that relates to msds

respirators and fresh air are mandatory as is flammability precautions. it's transdermal effects on the skin can vary quite dramatically, I must addmit that I should be wearing gloves when I apply it, but, bieng one who is sensitized to other chemicals, such as PFA hardeners, I personally have no ill effects in my skin from handling it on the occasional varnishing of an instrument, it may be different under more exposure.

Violin varnishes can be buffed out with mechanical buffers like lacquer is but only after it is cured properly, usually about 1 month. However these varnishes have the ability to add a topographical element, that certainly is desired in violins, perhaps not so much in guitar land, but I like my instruments to look like violins that just happen to be guitars. But the varnish can be polished out flat.

I am a BIG fan of Joe Robsons varnish and varnish systems. I gnerally always use his varnish as my top coats, and have used the entire "ground" system as well with excellent results.

the final thing I would add is that; one may look at these tiny 1oz bottles for 60 bucks and think, wow, I;d be lucky to coat one guitar with that, but actually if you take a bottle, divide it into 3, and than to each third add that same amount x3 of turpintine, you can actually coat 3 maybe even 4 guitars with one tiny bottle. Or you can really thin it and brush it on and just let it dry, it drys with perfect sheen and is WAFER thin. But I prefer smearing/hand squeegy'ing on slightly thicker product, bottom line is it's actually quite economical, let alone if you can make your own version.
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  #35  
Old 02-20-2018, 07:43 AM
redir redir is offline
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Thanks jessupe. It's something that I have been wanting to experiment with. I have been using a varnish out of a can made by Sherwin Williams and on the last guitar I tried Tru-Oil which i was quite pleased with actually.

Don't traditional violin varnishes take forever to dry though?

EDIT: Wow, after reading that I can clearly see why a one ounce bottle appears to be expensive, it's not.

Last edited by redir; 02-20-2018 at 08:11 AM.
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  #36  
Old 02-20-2018, 12:58 PM
Alan Carruth Alan Carruth is offline
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Turpentine is actually carcinogenic, I'm told.

The big reference book for a lot of this stuff is Meyers 'Artists Handbook of Materials and Methods'. In the section on varnishes he talks a lot about the issues of quality control, basically coming to the conclusion that it's impossible to make cooked oil-resin varnish with consistent qualities in batches of less than 200 gallons. The properties of the final finish depend not only on the ingredients and proportions, but on how long you cook it, how hot you get it, and how long it takes to heat it up and cool it down.

I did make one batch of 'Fulton' varnish once. The ingredients are raw cold-pressed linseed oil and pure spirits of gum turpentine, along with a few drops of dryer. You heat and aerate a gallon of turps with the dryer in it for about a month, until it turns the consistency of honey and half of it cooks off. Then you carefullycook the remainder down to a terpene resin: it can explode, and gives off volumes of nasty smoke, so you do this outdoors. Then add in the oil and cook it into a co-polymer. Thin the resulting goo with thin turps, and you've got varnish. It works, but I probably won't do it again.

Many violin makers use 'spirit varnish', which is basically some mix of resins dissolved in alcohol. They do this in part because of the QC issues with oil varnishes in the old days, and in part because many oil varnishes can take a while to cure, particularly if they have not been cooked right. Again, QC.

Not all oil-resin varnishes are wonderful, either, and some have long-term durability issues as bad as nitro. Rosin based varnish, which used to be popular, tends to break down over time because the rosin is acidic; crazing terribly. Wood ash is said to neutralize that. 'Run Copal' varnish was popular about 150 years ago. They found that copal resin, which is not normally soluble in oil, could be used if it was 'run'; heated up enough to drive off some fraction. The only problem was that the initially clear and beautiful varnish turned black with age.

Martin Schleske's research into varnishes found that there is no significant difference in the film properties between 'violin' varnish and good furniture finishes. The varnish I use now is actually a floor finish, and not cheap, at about $50/qt. That's still a lot less than violin varnish. The main thing is to use a thin film.
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  #37  
Old 02-20-2018, 03:18 PM
charles Tauber charles Tauber is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan Carruth View Post
Turpentine is actually carcinogenic...
there is no significant difference in the film properties between 'violin' varnish and good furniture finishes.
Soooo, we seem to have come full circle. It would seem that traditional varnish isn't necessarily any "healthier" for you than modern finishes and traditional violin varnish isn't, practically, much different than floor/furniture varnishes.

The best of the lot, health-wise, it seems, continues to be shellac in alcohol. But, it still has the usual limitations of a shellac finish.

It would seem that one ought to use the finish that gives one the desired result and that one can live with applying, while taking the necessary precautions, be they respirators, adequate ventilation or explosion-proof equipment.

A while back, I bought an expensive bottle of violin varnish, but haven't yet tried it. I'll give it a try soon.

Thanks, all, for the information.
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  #38  
Old 02-20-2018, 05:22 PM
jessupe jessupe is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by charles Tauber View Post
Soooo, we seem to have come full circle. It would seem that traditional varnish isn't necessarily any "healthier" for you than modern finishes and traditional violin varnish isn't, practically, much different than floor/furniture varnishes.

The best of the lot, health-wise, it seems, continues to be shellac in alcohol. But, it still has the usual limitations of a shellac finish.

It would seem that one ought to use the finish that gives one the desired result and that one can live with applying, while taking the necessary precautions, be they respirators, adequate ventilation or explosion-proof equipment.

A while back, I bought an expensive bottle of violin varnish, but haven't yet tried it. I'll give it a try soon.

Thanks, all, for the information.
Turpentine is not classified as a carcinogen.

https://toxnet.nlm.nih.gov/cgi-bin/s...erm+@DOCNO+204

Floor finishes are an ok alternate to laquer , they certainly are durable. I'm not a big fan of their Uv degradation based on the solids suspension. Or frankly most formulas over about 50 years will start to dramatically degrade and "white/yellow" out, they loose transparency.

There are SEVRAL varnish recipes out there that incorporate a myriad of "sap" ingredients form many various trees.

Spirit varnishes can be based off wax free shellac and make excellent varnish system...My main go to system is sugar, wax free shellac and Joes ontop. Spirit varnish alone also makes for a good finish

Virtually 99% of the shellac that comes into this country in any form is coming from RPM corp who owns most all the lac forests, zinnser one of their coatings divisions makes a product called "seal coat" this is an excellent base coat that works well with any top coat, it makes a good ground for urethanes an other products. Shellac when used properly is a MUCH more durable product than it is given credit for, it does not make a super durable top coat, unless it is modified into "hard shellac" {add drano.sodium hydroxide} but as a base coat it works very well for grain celebration and vapor protections, it rates as high as many epoxy sealers as far as holding back vapor {excluding smiths CPES}

Dura seal, a sherwin williams company, for pro floor guys, makes a product called "quick coat" this is sold as a floor stain, it's base is alkyd and or polyester, as a stain it is intended to wiped on and then off, however it can be brushed on and allowed to lay up like a varnish, color coats will burn through, so one must be careful, but the clear color can be used as a varnish, it is fairly durable and alkyds unlike urethane remains more stable in uv, more transparent. I like to use these stains for "bursts" ontop of size coats as they are very easy to control and dry and may be recoated the following day.

Theres a million ways to skin a cat, but the bottom line is what ever you use cover your *** and wear proper protection of every kind for any products that have volatile solvents, including denatured alc. and if a coating has a water base that does not mean that it is "safe", proper care needs to be used with those products also.

My system uses sugar water, everclear/shellac, and pure turp, it's about as low toxic as it gets, Joes research and products I believe in, therefore they have an established track record of super longevity, so when I combine low toxicity, ease of use and final product I think it's a combo thats hard to beat.

I generally go for a more hand rubbed look, but like I say they can be buffed out, they might not be for everyone, but I sure like the system and the over look.

Another factor is that by living in Ca, as a lic contactor, I have a slightly higher bar to meet in that I can get into serious trouble if I'm caught spraying without the proper setup and doing it in an un permitted area. Just the other day a cabinet guy in a shop area got busted by the fire dept for spraying in his shop improperly without a hooded spraybooth setup. So it's kinda my way of mitigating the environazi environment.
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