The Acoustic Guitar Forum

Go Back   The Acoustic Guitar Forum > General Acoustic Guitar and Amplification Discussion > Acoustic Amplification

Reply
 
Thread Tools
  #31  
Old 02-11-2018, 03:09 PM
lschwart lschwart is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Richmond, VA
Posts: 2,796
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by varmonter View Post
thanks i've been toying around with this myself.
when we play at loud venues i've been basically "thinning my guitar
out to try and keep the mud down at higher volumes. i usually hp
at around 115 at least with our Touchmix mixer this seems to work
well with my taylor which nontypicically has a very nice bass side to it.
The Touchmix should give you a lot of control--nice tool! My guitar is an older Taylor dread (410) that has plenty of deep bass, so that's part of the reason a HPF as high as 200Hz doesn't completely thin it out. When I run sound at a local contra dance I have a Mackie DL1608 at my disposal, and that lets me just slide the HPF to wherever the sweet spot is for a given guitar in a given mix, and I can search for whatever else needs adjusting in the other frequencies.

When I'm playing and running my own sound at the same time, I don't have time or the mental space to be so careful about the adjustments, so just flipping the HPF on the PZ-Pre and maybe adding a small bump in the low mids suits me just fine.

Louis
Reply With Quote
  #32  
Old 02-11-2018, 04:29 PM
Petty1818 Petty1818 is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 4,556
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by rokdog49 View Post
That's why I use a Fishman Platinum Pro with EQ with all my pickups.
You can dial anything in or out with it. It makes good pickups great and bad pickups good.
Not many users on here...I'm a little baffled but hey, whatever works for everybody.
It's not really a unique preamp and a lot of users on here seem to have their own versions. Actually the Fishman systems are extremely popular. With that said, preamps with eq can only do so much. Saying it makes good pickups sound great might be a bit of a stretch. Not trying to be argumentative but I have been down that road before. I remember buying every preamp thinking it would be the cure for my plugged in tone. At the end of the day they are great but they won't fix all issues.
Reply With Quote
  #33  
Old 02-11-2018, 04:45 PM
BluesKing777 BluesKing777 is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2012
Posts: 3,517
Default

I saw a good description on a long defunct recording forum with a pie chart, which I am not going to draw, but describe a little....when you play your acoustic guitar at home, alone, you have the whole pie. When you sing, you have to share the pie, approx 50/50. Add a large noisy crowd, you have to share that noise space with your guitar sound, so you get even less.
Now, add a drummer, you got nothing. Unless you get get a volume to match the drumkit. Add a whole band and....phew.

Now with some electronics and judicious eq, you need to 'carve' a piece of the pie for your acoustic guitar. Bass and drums occupy mainly this bit, vocals mainly this bit, guitar this bit. (which is usually a very narrow band, hence adding a slab of compression to help make all that guitar sound fit in ...that bit!

FYI:

http://blog.sonicbids.com/the-ultima...mon-instrument


BluesKing777.
Reply With Quote
  #34  
Old 02-11-2018, 06:24 PM
Chriscom's Avatar
Chriscom Chriscom is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: May 2017
Location: Northern Virginia/DC/USA
Posts: 1,792
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by BluesKing777 View Post
I kid you not, 20 minutes go I was having trouble getting good results from my Tonematch T1 into a Bose L1 Compact, did a google search for how to EQ guitar, and came up with that link. Helped!
Reply With Quote
  #35  
Old 02-11-2018, 06:30 PM
BluesKing777 BluesKing777 is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2012
Posts: 3,517
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chriscom View Post
I kid you not, 20 minutes go I was having trouble getting good results from my Tonematch T1 into a Bose L1 Compact, did a google search for how to EQ guitar, and came up with that link. Helped!
Did you get their free beer, too?

BluesKing777.
Reply With Quote
  #36  
Old 02-12-2018, 10:29 AM
MrErikJ MrErikJ is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2016
Location: Kansas City
Posts: 1,142
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by buzzardwhiskey View Post
... Or at least an "imperfect" goal.

I've been struggling, as I'm sure many of you have, to get a good reproduction of my guitar on stage. I've tried several different pickup and pre-amp combinations with varying results. But one of the things I'm really beginning to understand is that my desire for "my guitar only louder" isn't a particularly useful goal.

My understanding of why this happens is extremely poor. Here's the deal... I recently achieved an almost hyper-accurate representation of my guitar via the Tonedexter system. When played through headphones or through my Schertler Unico or Soundcraft/Yamaha PA at attentive listening levels, it sounds amazing. But when we play loud bars (and it always seems to happen when I have no control) the guitar sounds beyond bad. Tinny, ice-picky and thin are my most common complaints.

I'm thinking that I may start bringing my Unico to use as a monitor and that the DI-out can go to the house. Then at least I can have it sound good on the stage.
I think you've discovered what so many musicians settle on at some point: live sound will never fully capture your guitar's details and if it does, it may not apply well to your performing situation.

The most natural pickup I've ever used was a PUTW #54 but it was super low-ouput, feedback prone, and would get lost in a mix. Nowadays, I just use the LB6 in my 'pickin' guitars and an iBeam in my strummer. They're not PUTW or Trance-level natural but they work and are audible in a mix. For the music I play and the venues I perform in, these are the best compromise of utility and tone. The LB6 doesn't sound as natural as a PUTW but it does sound better than a Fishman and it's passive and feedback resistant. The iBeam is pretty nice but it's not as hot as a K&K or Dazzo but for my strummer, it's more than enough and requires very little EQ.

I don't chase "perfect" because that could become the enemy of "good." I get a good sound that's passive and dependable, I won't risk losing that for a chance at something more "natural." And "natural" is a quality that only I'll appreciate and will be lost on the audience who just care about hearing the music and it being in tune.
__________________
Alvarez MC90
Guild GAD-50 w/Seymour Duncan Mag Mic
Taylor 352ce
Taylor 514ce

Zoom AC3

https://linktr.ee/erikjmusic
Reply With Quote
  #37  
Old 02-12-2018, 01:38 PM
Monsum Monsum is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2015
Posts: 473
Default

I came to the same conclusion as the OP, that's why I equipped my last guitar with a piezo pickup (LR Baggs Session VTC). I realised that many live recordings I like feature a UST pickup, (often Fishman Matrix or similar). The benefit is, you worry less about the feedback and you can get a really good sound although not necessarily natural.

In many sound examples of systems like the Tonedexter or the Aura, I hear on one hand sound closer to a natural one, but on the other hand very processed.
It's something I can achieve in my DAW, using many plugins and techniques to turn a UST sound into acoustic tone but often its still not as convincing as piezo sound with some EQ.
I think for live performance a piezo does a good job, I say that possibly because I'm used to it or maybe a quality UST pickup is not that terrible. And we only say this when we compare it to the sound of an unamplified acoustic.
Reply With Quote
  #38  
Old 02-13-2018, 08:28 AM
varmonter varmonter is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2014
Location: The heart of Saturday night..
Posts: 3,645
Default

I've had good luck with grace designs Felix. I agree "natural" does not cut it
In a live mix. I like KK pups but find now I'd rather use the sunrise mag as it is
More versatile and always sounds good in any situation (with less tweaking)...so far... The KK does not
work well without a pre and some eq. The sunrise sounds doable plugged into
A di ...

Last edited by varmonter; 02-16-2018 at 07:13 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #39  
Old 02-16-2018, 12:15 AM
Daddyo Daddyo is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: British Columbia
Posts: 415
Default

This is why guitars like Taylors are so popular in full bands. They sound great in a band mix with their built-in piezo systems. Solo or acoustic, not so good. Guitars that sound great acoustically like a Martin often sound boomy played loud and amplified.
__________________
Do your best, fake the rest
Reply With Quote
  #40  
Old 02-16-2018, 07:23 AM
varmonter varmonter is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2014
Location: The heart of Saturday night..
Posts: 3,645
Default

Funny i've never owned an ovation but always
thought they sounded pretty good in a live plugged
in situation. not so much acoustically in a living room.
So i think taylor's "sound" also occupies this spot in the
mix . a little "high and lonesome"if you will. Put it in front
of a mic and not as much. This is where Martin shines.
Reply With Quote
  #41  
Old 02-16-2018, 07:42 AM
leew3 leew3 is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2017
Posts: 2,953
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Daddyo View Post
This is why guitars like Taylors are so popular in full bands. They sound great in a band mix with their built-in piezo systems. Solo or acoustic, not so good. Guitars that sound great acoustically like a Martin often sound boomy played loud and amplified.
In contrast I love the sound of my Taylors acoustically as well as solo specifically because of the ES system. Run directly to the board which I keep set flat I can adjust my tone at the guitar as needed, which is rare. I also love my Martin acoustically. I can't comment on them amplified as I don't have pickups in them!
Reply With Quote
  #42  
Old 02-16-2018, 08:08 AM
tubetone74 tubetone74 is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 78
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by lschwart View Post
It's hard to project a realistic acoustic guitar sound out into a noisy venue like a loud bar. Pickups give you a simpler and in a sense a more coherent sound that can do the job better. In a noisy bar no one can hear all that nice, airy natural reverberation, especially if it's part of a full band mix. In those cases, acoustic guitar has to find a simpler role to play in a mix than it can in quieter, less complicated situations (or in complex ones with a full-scale, fully featured PA with a good tech at the helm).

Louis
All the reason more to play a good ole J45 with the midrange presence under those conditions.

Last edited by tubetone74; 02-16-2018 at 08:35 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #43  
Old 02-16-2018, 12:20 PM
guitaniac guitaniac is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Posts: 6,709
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by tubetone74 View Post
All the reason more to play a good ole J45 with the midrange presence under those conditions.
This is an interesting observation to me because target guitar #7 (based on a J45) was one of my favorite Mama Bear (digital processor) target guitars to use in a noisy setting. It just had a drier, more focused and less feedback prone sound which worked better for me in that setting. And of course, I was only blending in about 30% to 40% processed signal with 70% to 60% dry signal.

With respect to ToneDexter, though, I'm still preferring using full character. I'm not even feeling a need to reduce the character at this point, let alone make the upgrade which would enable me to blend some dry signal with a WaveMap. Perhaps the fact that I'm training WaveMaps with an omni-directional mic at fairly close distance is producing less ambient sounding WaveMaps which are less of a problem in a noisy setting.

The fact that I only play solo likely also contributes to my preference for the full character ToneDexter sound. I remember a friend once telling me that he preferred the amplified sound from a PUTW soundboard pickup when playing solo, but needed a UST sound to cut though in a band setting.
Reply With Quote
  #44  
Old 02-16-2018, 01:05 PM
Mr. Jelly's Avatar
Mr. Jelly Mr. Jelly is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: May 2016
Location: Sioux City, Iowa
Posts: 7,848
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by rokdog49 View Post
Oh contrare' mon frere'
I can achieve a very close proximity to the "voice" of my acoustic unplugged.
Yes it's no longer an acoustic only sound but it is the sound of my acoustic only louder.
I respectfully disagree. When volume is added the room acoustics enhance and subtract from whatever the original sound was. You can't change physics.
__________________
Waterloo WL-S, K & K mini
Waterloo WL-S Deluxe, K & K mini
Iris OG, 12 fret, slot head, K & K mini

Follow The Yellow Brick Road
Reply With Quote
  #45  
Old 02-16-2018, 02:50 PM
AeroUSA AeroUSA is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2017
Location: New York
Posts: 2,164
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by guitaniac View Post
This is an interesting observation to me because target guitar #7 (based on a J45) was one of my favorite Mama Bear (digital processor) target guitars to use in a noisy setting. It just had a drier, more focused and less feedback prone sound which worked better for me in that setting. And of course, I was only blending in about 30% to 40% processed signal with 70% to 60% dry signal.

With respect to ToneDexter, though, I'm still preferring using full character. I'm not even feeling a need to reduce the character at this point, let alone make the upgrade which would enable me to blend some dry signal with a WaveMap. Perhaps the fact that I'm training WaveMaps with an omni-directional mic at fairly close distance is producing less ambient sounding WaveMaps which are less of a problem in a noisy setting.

The fact that I only play solo likely also contributes to my preference for the full character ToneDexter sound. I remember a friend once telling me that he preferred the amplified sound from a PUTW soundboard pickup when playing solo, but needed a UST sound to cut though in a band setting.

I find that the blend control doesn’t work in the same was as the Aura. I’m glad it’s there but I actually prefer character 1 or 2!
Reply With Quote
Reply

  The Acoustic Guitar Forum > General Acoustic Guitar and Amplification Discussion > Acoustic Amplification

Thread Tools





All times are GMT -6. The time now is 05:34 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
Copyright ©2000 - 2022, The Acoustic Guitar Forum
vB Ad Management by =RedTyger=