Custom ordering concerns and lesson?

[granttucker]

I'm thinking about custom ordering a Charis guitar. (I use to own a pre-owned one and loved the build quality.)
It's a little overwhelming to say the least looking at all the options. Lol

What have you found to be unnecessary customizations?

What do you wish you had done differently?

What woods look killer, but you were underwhelmed with their performance?

I'll be mainly writing and recording with this one. Finger style and rhythm usage.
Thank you for any insight or lessons learned!

[Teleplucker]

Save yourself lots of time and money and look at the used one for sale in the classifieds.

[N K Forster]

Originally Posted by granttucker

I'm thinking about custom ordering a Charis guitar. (I use to own a pre-owned one and loved the build quality.)
It's a little overwhelming to say the least looking at all the options. Lol

What have you found to be unnecessary customizations?

What do you wish you had done differently?

What woods look killer, but you were underwhelmed with their performance?

I'll be mainly writing and recording with this one. Finger style and rhythm usage.
Thank you for any insight or lessons learned!

I would suggest you have this discussion with Mr Charis. Let him know your budget and your priorities and come up with the best spec.

Nigel
www.nkforsterguitars.com

[fitness1]

Originally Posted by granttucker

I'm thinking about custom ordering a Charis guitar. (I use to own a pre-owned one and loved the build quality.)
It's a little overwhelming to say the least looking at all the options. Lol

What have you found to be unnecessary customizations?

What do you wish you had done differently?

What woods look killer, but you were underwhelmed with their performance?

I'll be mainly writing and recording with this one. Finger style and rhythm usage.
Thank you for any insight or lessons learned!

I think you will find the process with Bill to be very fulfilling. His lead time is generally quite short and the end result is spectacular.

I think instead of inquiring about "what woods look killer, but...." You should tell us (and Bill) more about your playing style and if your ear tends to like a brighter sounding instrument or more lush.

The aesthetics are personal choice of course. I've had Bill build two instruments for me, and the SJ Koa that I have kept, I wish I'd gone ahead and done the abalone top on. Other than that I can't find one thing I would have changed. It's the most versatile instrument I've held in my hands.

[El Conquistador]

After my many years of commissioning luthier built guitars, I have come to understand one critical thing. I have NO idea how to build a guitar, let alone a great guitar. Understanding that, I have created the following rules for commissioning a luthier built guitar:

1. Find a builer whose guitars have the tone you long for, that play like you want them to play, and aesthetics that make your heart skip a beat every time you open the case. A builder who you trust to create the instrument you want. A builder whose business practices inspires trust. And, a builder with whom you would enjoy working.

2. Communicate to that builder as thoroughly as you can how you play guitar including plectrum/fingerpick, settings (home on your couch, guitar circles, band) , style(s) of music and what you want to hear and feel when you play guitar.

3. Make the choices that builder designates as your to make.

4. Once this is all done, trust her/him to make all the other choices in order to accomplish what you want. DO NOT try to tell him/her how to build a guitar. In particular, do NOT come to a forum like this asking for advice. You either trust your builder or you do not. If not, go back to #1.

Steve

[jaymarsch]

Originally Posted by El Conquistador

After my many years of commissioning luthier built guitars, I have come to understand one critical thing. I have NO idea how to build a guitar, let alone a great guitar. Understanding that, I have created the following rules for commissioning a luthier built guitar:

1. Find a builer whose guitars have the tone you long for, that play like you want them to play, and aesthetics that make your heart skip a beat every time you open the case. A builder who you trust to create the instrument you want. A builder whose business practices inspires trust. And, a builder with whom you would enjoy working.

2. Communicate to that builder as thoroughly as you can how you play guitar including plectrum/fingerpick, settings (home on your couch, guitar circles, band) , style(s) of music and what you want to hear and feel when you play guitar.

3. Make the choices that builder designates as your to make.

4. Once this is all done, trust her/him to make all the other choices in order to accomplish what you want. DO NOT try to tell him/her how to build a guitar. In particular, do NOT come to a forum like this asking for advice. You either trust your builder or you do not. If not, go back to #1.

Steve

Really good summary, Steve. I concur even though I have only had one custom guitar built. I think that it was a huge success because I followed what you have pointed out here.

Best,
Jayne

[The Bard Rocks]

Realistically, the only thing the owner-to-be can/should affect is the aesthetics. I have been pretty involved in the builds I have done but most of my choices were based on looks not sound or function or playability. In fact I inform the builder to never ever let me try to get them to do something that they have doubts about - I give them the right to overrule me. But do not know why none of them have done this (yet).

I will re-emphasize the importance of getting them to see though your eyes, hear through your ears, and play through your hand - communication and rapport are so vital.

[islandguitar]

Originally Posted by The Bard Rocks

Realistically, the only thing the owner-to-be can/should affect is the aesthetics. I have been pretty involved in the builds I have done but most of my choices were based on looks not sound or function or playability. In fact I inform the builder to never ever let me try to get them to do something that they have doubts about - I give them the right to overrule me. But do not know why none of them have done this (yet).

I will re-emphasize the importance of getting them to see though your eyes, hear through your ears, and play through your hand - communication and rapport are so vital.

This is a really good post!
Like Jayne, I've only had one custom built for me, but oh, what a great experience it was with Tom Doerr! Bill Wise (Charis) mentored Tom in the early stages of his building career, so on that front I think you're in great hands with your choice.
A few quotes I recall from Tom during the process:

"Lucky Strike Redwood is the real deal" .....and it is!

"What are you looking for".....Oh boy, this is the moment when I have to define my "sound wants"! (I hope I can do this!). And so we talked a bunch....but I also sent him multiple recordings of my playing to help with this. These were originals so there wasn't any comparisons with known cover songs....tom nailed it for me! In a sense, I was looking to combine the best of two of my other guitars' sound into one instrument so these recordings were done with two different guitars to help convey things.

"L. S. Redwood and Cocobolo is a magical combination"......and it is!

When talking about neck profile (I like a thinner less bulky shape)....."no one has ever had issues with my neck carve" .......go for it......was great.

Tom's process got me going on the aesthetics of the rosette and wood choices early on to help with time passing before the build actually got underway, so I "felt" like the build was underway! Nice move! As with the posting above, so much of this was creatively devoted to those items (aesthetics), while the build factors were with Tom. However, Tom was wonderful in informing me on build approaches as I wanted to learn as much as possible, while never interfering with his direction for my instrument.

Good luck and have a ball with this!

[jseth]

I have had only two 6 string acoustic guitars since 1979 when I had Mark Angus build me #35... the second is my Goodall Grand Concert that James and Luke built for me in 2011.

In hindsight, I realize how lucky I was with my Angus; I really didn't know what I wanted - more, I knew what I DIDN'T want... I did have the foresight to have a cutaway on that guitar.

With my Goodall, I knew James and Luke for several years before I had them build me this one. I sat in the front room of their shop in Fort Bragg and played, many hours and MANY guitars... so, when I began to talk with James about "my" guitar, he really knew how I played, what my attack strength was, what I liked and didn't...

Having that knowledge really helped him build me the guitar I wanted.

I heartily endorse the sentiment to TRUST THE BUILDER... you must communicate what you want to him, and do it effectively. Remember, ALL he has is what he gets from you!

If you absolutely know what woods you want, then let him know and see what he says, what he thinks of them. I would never try to get a builder to do something THEY aren't comfortable with or don't feel good about.

As far as appointments go, well, that's on you. Try to visualize what your guitar will look like when it's completed... close your eyes and imagine! Do you want it to be fancy, with abalone or mother-of-pearl inlays around the soundboard, on the headstock and/or the headstock? Do you want a "custom" pattern or one that the builder already does? What sort of binding do you want? (again, imagine what it will look like with the woods you want and add the binding to that image...)

You get the idea... EVERYTHING is up to you, when it comes to the appearance of the guitar. Now, I'm sure that Bill Charis is quite well-versed in building exquisite guitars, so you can trust him with decisions that you don't want to make.

AS far as the sound goes, that's all on him... with your input as to what sound you are wanting... but YOU have to tell him what you want...

It's a wild, (at times) nervewracking, suspenseful and ultimately extremely gratifying experience to have a guitar that was made FOR YOU...

Have fun with it! Good luck!

[colins]

I've had five custom builds so far. All fantastic.

Steve and The Bard absolutely nailed it, could not say it better.

Bill Wise has been building great guitars for ages. Talk extensively with him about the way you play and the sound you like, then enjoy the benefits his experience.

And then maybe share the build with us via a build thread?!

Col

[Mr. Jelly]

How will you know what it will sound like? Or feel like? This is what I believe is the gamble.

[N K Forster]

Originally Posted by Mr. Jelly

How will you know what it will sound like? Or feel like? This is what I believe is the gamble.

Not everyone is cut out to order a guitar. There is no shame in this, or anything wrong with it. It just is how it is. Some people are better suited to buying "off the peg." Over on another forum is a maker who refuses to take orders. He builds and he sells. That way he feels less under pressure. He is never in a position to disappoint anyone.

I don't know if the person who started the thread is suited to ordering but someone like Mr Jelly isn't. And that's fine.

Nigel
www.nkforsterguitars.com

[gitarro]

IMHO custom ordering is particularly useful and necessary when you have a very particular aesthetic vision and/or if you have certain ergonomic or playability requirements that are not easily met by production guitars.

If you are eager to try out some ergonomic feature you have heard about, unless its something ground breaking that is rarely if not ever done, it's a lot cheaper looking for a used guitar that has that feature and trying it to see if it will suit you well.

However where it comes to custom ordering to get a tonally more preferred guitar, the reality is that it's always a throw of the dice.

Most of the time you end up with a decent and even a good guitar. Sometimes you end up with a guitar that will knock your socks off. Very rarely will you end up with a complete dud. The odds get better the better the luthier is. Other times the guitar tone is fine but its just not nice enough sounding to your preferences.

You have to accept the inherent tonal risk in custom ordering a guitar even from the best luthiers - they do not knock the ball out of the ball park every time for every customer. If you cannot accept that risk then its best to try out new guitars built on spec or used guitars till you find the one that appeals to you.

If you are havig the opportunity to play used guitars having those features but are not even knowing what features you want in a custom build, then may i respectfully suggest that you may not be ready to custom order. Tour a guitar shop and try out as many good used guitars you can play and see if bevels, short scale, manzer wedge, fretboard extension, elevated fretboard, soundports and any other features will make a difference to you or not. You will save a lot of money that way.

[granttucker]

Great insight by everyone! Thank you so much for your thoughts!
I'll post the build when I start it

Grant

[s2y]

I find that radiused armrests or bevels might be "unnecessary" on a smaller bodied acoustic, but they're still nice.

I have only 2 regrets with a heck of a lot of custom builds. I wish my Rob Allen 5 string bass had 6 strings. Bought a Rob Allen 6, sold the 5. I went a little extreme with the fan on my 7 string acoustic. The builder tried to talk me out of it, but I thought it would be ok. I was wrong.