An interesting thing about music business

[Glennwillow]

Wow, interesting comments on this thread. I enjoyed Sandy's comments; I've never seen such detailed posts from her before. Very well done!

- Glenn

[Chicago Sandy]

....just blushing.....thanks, Davis & Glenn!

as to the "detail," making up for lost time while I was cheating on all you guys with other forums and Facebook.....

[SongwriterFan]

Originally Posted by Chicago Sandy

Does anyone go to see Britney Spears, Madonna, Lady Gaga or Miley Cyrus, expecting them to stand stock still alone onstage in front of a piano, and croon into a microphone on a stand?

I would've paid to see Garth Brooks do that. Or Tim McGraw, or a bunch of other artists.

What you're describing, BTW, is exactly what Don Williams did. I think the only words he spoke were after the first song: I don't talk much, and I guess that about covers that. The rest was simple singing with a band that almost appeared scared to tap their feet.

[Silly Moustache]

Originally Posted by SongwriterFan

And there you have it.

Too many people want a "show" instead of live music.

Yup - but people will consume what they are told to and given. This is the business model for most American corporates who create a product and then over market it whether it be a pretty young girl taught to gyrate like a hooker/lap dancer, or mass produced coffee (with syrups GHU) or cholesterol soaked junk food.

Who said that the "pop" industry was about music ? It wasn't way back when Bill Haley gave up being a great country singer and "invented" Rock and roll.

It is about screwing the sheople out of hard earned cash.

I confess that I despise the American business model ....esp. after working for a US corporate for twenty years.

Real music is out there ...and right here. The people who sit at home and rehearse and rehearse, and go out and play and sing acoustically or through a small p.a.

Check out vocalists like Darrell Scott, Tim O'Brien, and Cahalen Morrison and Eli West, and a host of good bluegrass singers and right through to small time soul singers.

There is a difference between the "music business" with all those phoney "X Factor" type programmes, the hyped up high dollar soft porn shows .......
.... and real music.

I have a friend who calls anything coming out of Nashville "industrial country".

From Jimmie Rodgers and the Carter Family to Shania Twain and Garth Brooks - no comparison.

Everything has to be "over the top" (and over priced). Take me back to the twenties, thirties, forties, fifties .... Now!

Visiting our locale lately - James Taylor and Emmylou Harris. Tickets start at £60 ($99) plus "booking fee" - Can I afford it ? Yes ! Will I go ? Nope.

[Nailpicker]

I think C. Sandy's comments are right on. I've often thought to myself "no way people can sing and dance and gyrate around like that at the same time." However, I'd never pay to see some show like that. I'd much prefer to listen to a musician who is low key in his/her performance and can be because they are so good that their musicianship is what captivates the audience, not fireworks, gyrations and the flashing of skin. But it seems like that is what the younger viewers (and perhaps some older viewers) have been brought up on and want. I won't comment on what I think is the underpinnings of that.

When I was taking vocal lessons my teacher (who has a university music degree) told me 2 things that stuck in my mind.

1. She said I had very good pitch, but in the process of developing my voice I wavered and lost some of that good pitch. She said that that was normal and that after developing my voice I'd be able to get my pitch back, but regardless I could always use pitch correction. Being a bit of a perfectionist, I told her that was unacceptable to me. If my couldn't regain my pitch I wouldn't sing and if I wouldn't sing because of bad pitch there was no point in me taking voice lessons. Apparently pitch isn't deemed as important as it once might have been

2.I tend to be a fairly unemotional person. At least I don't like to publicly display my emotions. My view of great musicians of both instruments and singing (the human voice IMO is undoubtedly the most difficult instrument in which to excel and be consistent) is that I want the playing of the instrument to stand alone and to speak for itself. My teacher told me that they are taught in music college that it's at least as much about the production and presentation as it is the music. To which I replied, "Rather than calling it the college of music, why not then call it the college of presentation?"

Thing is, you can call yourself a musician, work at becoming good and do that until the day you die. But it would look pretty ridiculous, if not repulsive if a 60 or 70 year old (yeah, even most 50 year old) musician/singer got on stage and pranced and gyrated about while either lip syncing/pitch correction or singing sour.

Did I get off point?...I've been going back and forth writing this intermittently while doing some house chores.

[Legolas1971]

Getting back to Auto-tune.......It really depends on how the vocal performance sits in the mix when deciding to use AT or not. Some songs sound great with all or some of the human "error" in there. Some vocals may not sit well and cause an unwanted tension in a mix. In that case, I would use AT sparingly to de-emphasize that spot. Personally, I think it's a great tool to use in moderation just like EQ or compression.

[Glennwillow]

Originally Posted by Silly Moustache

... Visiting our locale lately - James Taylor and Emmylou Harris. Tickets start at £60 ($99) plus "booking fee" - Can I afford it ? Yes ! Will I go ? Nope.

Hi SM,

Well, having some feel for your musical tastes, JT is probably not your thing. But at least James Taylor isn't pretending to be a dancer and as far as I can tell, he is not using autotune for his vocals. I went to a JT show at Tanglewood a couple of summers ago, and it was a terrific show and worth the $100/ticket price that we paid. I would pay that much to see Alison Krauss and Union Station. But there would be no dancing there, either... I got to see Jane Monheit at Seattle's Jazz Alley about a year ago and she was amazing... no autotune there.

I certainly understand your point -- that we can get more enjoyment out of real, uncomplicated music from a local coffee house, assuming the audience is actually listening. And I agree.

- Glenn

[Martz911]

When I go to hear live music, my feeling is that dancing, choreography, light shows, and explosions are as welcome as bowel surgery. What I really want to see is how far the singer can stick his or her tongue out.

[sad99]

Originally Posted by Silly Moustache

Yup - but people will consume what they are told to and given. This is the business model for most American corporates who create a product and then over market it whether it be a pretty young girl taught to gyrate like a hooker/lap dancer, or mass produced coffee (with syrups GHU) or cholesterol soaked junk food.

Who said that the "pop" industry was about music ? It wasn't way back when Bill Haley gave up being a great country singer and "invented" Rock and roll.

It is about screwing the sheople out of hard earned cash.

I confess that I despise the American business model ....esp. after working for a US corporate for twenty years.

Real music is out there ...and right here. The people who sit at home and rehearse and rehearse, and go out and play and sing acoustically or through a small p.a.

Check out vocalists like Darrell Scott, Tim O'Brien, and Cahalen Morrison and Eli West, and a host of good bluegrass singers and right through to small time soul singers.

There is a difference between the "music business" with all those phoney "X Factor" type programmes, the hyped up high dollar soft porn shows .......
.... and real music.

I have a friend who calls anything coming out of Nashville "industrial country".

From Jimmie Rodgers and the Carter Family to Shania Twain and Garth Brooks - no comparison.

Everything has to be "over the top" (and over priced). Take me back to the twenties, thirties, forties, fifties .... Now!

Visiting our locale lately - James Taylor and Emmylou Harris. Tickets start at £60 ($99) plus "booking fee" - Can I afford it ? Yes ! Will I go ? Nope.

I had to smile because I'll be seeing James Taylor and then John Prine with Emmylou as his opening act. Tickets were just about what you stated and I'm excited as hell for both shows. What would you consider a "fair" price for artists of that caliber?

It'll be my first time seeing JT, but I've enjoyed JP's music for 40 years and have seen him many times. I'd have a hard time describing his show as "over the top", though.

[IndianaGeo]

I don't see any difference between sports players using steroids and vocalists using auto-tune and the like. Seems people come down much harder on the sports figures. I wonder why that is?

IG

[RedJoker]

Originally Posted by IndianaGeo

I don't see any difference between sports players using steroids and vocalists using auto-tune and the like. Seems people come down much harder on the sports figures. I wonder why that is?

IG

Cause no one gets hurt with auto-tune? People don't see entertainment as competition? I don't really know, just some thoughts...

[IndianaGeo]

Originally Posted by RedJoker

Cause no one gets hurt with auto-tune? People don't see entertainment as competition? I don't really know, just some thoughts...

Yes, that's one way to look at it I suppose. I don't think many players are going to get hurt though, in baseball at least, because of steroids. Maybe football, yes. I still see many parallels though between steroid use of athletes and vocal enhancement and outright lip synching for singers. I mean, why not let certain stars use juiced baseballs and corked bats in major league games? It all seems fraudulent and dishonest to me. If, say, Grammy awards for "Best Vocalist" are given to those who use Auto-Tune and lip synch their concerts, I don't see any point whatsoever in calling them vocalists. By definition, it is not the talent of singing for which they are being awarded. It is something else.

IG

[Silly Moustache]

Originally Posted by Glennwillow

Hi SM,

Well, having some feel for your musical tastes, JT is probably not your thing. But at least James Taylor isn't pretending to be a dancer and as far as I can tell, he is not using autotune for his vocals. I went to a JT show at Tanglewood a couple of summers ago, and it was a terrific show and worth the $100/ticket price that we paid. I would pay that much to see Alison Krauss and Union Station. But there would be no dancing there, either... I got to see Jane Monheit at Seattle's Jazz Alley about a year ago and she was amazing... no autotune there.

I certainly understand your point -- that we can get more enjoyment out of real, uncomplicated music from a local coffee house, assuming the audience is actually listening. And I agree.

- Glenn

Hi Glenn, I'm fascinated (and perhaps flattered)that you know of my musical tastes, although I have been something of a fan of JT since I saw him in London right back when he started with apple Corps. I think he is a great songwriter and a neat player.

I have also loved Emmylou's work, and the lady herself, I've seen both of these artists before and they were memorable performances - but JT's band has always been wondrous to watch, but Emmylou's SpyBoy band was a great disappointment so that is one reason I'm passing.

I'm paying £65 on Wednesday to see Cahalen Morrison and Eli West, but that does include a three course meal, and hopefully the chance to dine with them.

Of course none of them will be using ...or need.. autotune.

Perhaps I'm being an old curmudgeon on a pension, but those prices just seem high to me - plus the parking problems/prices in Brighton.

[Davis Webb]

I just heard some of my new studio takes. I really want to use auto tune and see what happens. Some of my cuts could sure use it. I wish God had given me the talent for singing to match the desire he gave me to sing. I feel like Salieri. It seems that sometimes what we love most is the hardest thing to achieve. If auto tune can help get me there, I will try it. Heck, I learned how to ditch my rotary phone!

[vts]

Originally Posted by cary

I honestly don't care.

What people do within the entertainment industry is business. It's formulated to maximize income. That's how business has always worked.

I think the sadness comes when you start confusing the art of music-making with the business of music-making. They are entirely different things.

There will always be amazing musicians out there doing it because they love it, just like there will always be an industry out there doing it to maximize profit.

Really, there's room for both.

Well said cary. And what kind of idiot would actually think that their favorite pop-star is singing live impeccably while jumping and dancing all over the stage, anyway? People come to see the show, not listen to the music, and the show must look good and sound good. So nobody really cares about the lip-synching.