#31
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Fantastic, thanks for the explanation Jason. You are a fountain of knowledge and I - and I am sure others - really appreciate the time you spend on the forum with your insights.
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Trevor. |
#32
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Thank you Jason, for your detailed comment about this topic.
I have a question about the oneweek class, that ervin gives, and his books. Is the Information in the class and books the same, or are there differences, deeper Informations in the class, wich are only given by Ervin himself ? I know, to get in touch with a person/mentor and other students is always better for learning and thinking, but could (in your perspective) one "get it" only with the books? Iīm asking this, because i own and read the books (and canīt wait for the next). First i thought "yes, i understand", but after reading again and again, thinking and rereading, i have more questions then before. It is like open a door, only to find many other doors behind it. |
#33
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Thanks for those revelations, Jason. Ervin did some repairs for me in the early 70s and it please me to no end seeing what he's accomplished since then.
Pat |
#34
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The main problem with the books, in my personal opinion, is that You get out of it a level of information correlative to your experience level. they are written in the same way that Ervin teaches (the Socratic method of answering questions with more questions to get you to do the discovery learning yourself and think through the solution). While this frustrates a lot of people who just want the answers, the truth is that this method of teaching teaches you a mindset that allows for understanding, and application in ANY setting, not just the example used in the book. In the end, doing this kind of in-depth studying of a process makes you better able to apply it however you need to within the scope of your own work. The drawback is exactly like you identified, which is that it tends to raise a lot of questions, and with a book, there is no one to raise your hand and ask for clarification. As a result, people with a lot of experience have fewer questions, grasp the information more readily, and tend to get a lot out of the books, whereas newer and inexperienced builders may find a lot of what is covered to be difficult to grasp and understand. The problem is that there is nowhere to go to fill the gap. In that regard, I believe the class is a much better option for thoroughly understanding the subjects and learning to apply them, and the book is a great reference to look back on after having taken the class, or if you are someone with a higher level of experience and knowledge in terms of building. When I took the class we started a yahoo forum for all of the people that attended, and were trying to add other past members as well so that we had a group that we could turn to and ask questions after the class was over. This would have been a great resource, but the truth is no one wanted to put the time into creating it and maintaining it, and eventually the idea just kind of went away. The two biggest things that I got out of the class that I still rely on today was a day of "designing a guitar based on a client's needs" and the "listening test". The design day was pretty straightforward, with the caveat that Ervin would request some off the wall stuff... i.e. the client wants a large bodied sound in a small bodied guitar with a longer scale length for alternate tunings. He has some medical issues that make playing the guitar difficult with his left hand and shoulder and also wants to be able to play flamenco on it as well as fingerstyle while having it be a good strummer for his grandchild. We would then have to sit down and design the guitar from scratch based on what we had learned...materials, bracing pattern for the top, bracing pattern for the back, thickness of the plates, radius of the plates, etc. I do this almost every day in my current building, and it was invaluable to me to see how much we can manipulate the guitar to achieve a desired sound if we know what we are doing. The listening test is exactly what it sounds like... we sat in a room with 15 or so guitars, some ours, some Ervin's and some other brands, and listened to two guitars being played as equally as possible, and made notes. By comparing each guitar to one another, we were able to start to train our ear to hear things like attenuation, attack, clarity, sustain, response, etc. In the end, we each had a guitar that we thought was the best, and sometimes they matched, and sometimes we all disagreed, which taught me a lot about sound and the subjectivity of it. That is why we are able to have so many incredible builders out there. Just like flavors of ice cream, we all desire something and sometimes even within the same flavor, we prefer a specific brand. Every maker that I know is doing world-class work and we are not really trying to compete against one another, but rather find those 8-15 people each year that like what we do more than others. The class has produced some amazing graduates...Michael Greenfield, Kathy Wingert, Michael Bashkin, Tim McKnight, Steve Denvir, Rick Micheletti, and many others. I would personally argue that all of these people were incredible luthiers before they arrived, and that Ervin's class gave them something to think about...maybe one thing, maybe many things, but in the end, it was how they took that information and applied it that made it worthwhile. You can get that same information out of the books, but I think that you have to look harder to find it. Jason |
#35
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Quote:
In the parlance of the day: Mic drop.
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Larry Pattis on Spotify and Pandora LarryPattis.com American Guitar Masters 100 Greatest Acoustic Guitarists Steel-string guitars by Rebecca Urlacher and Simon Fay Classical guitars by Anders Sterner |
#36
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That's how I feel whenever I have the chance to talk to Jason.
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#37
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That first post by Jason is one of the best I've ever read on this Forum. It really is "horse's mouth" stuff and in very lucid and accessible language.
I think it's interesting the way this thread has morphed: The OP was quite clearly talking about Ervin's apprentices and after a few posts we're talking about the classes and the line between the two is getting blurred until Jason's erudite exposition. They are quite clearly very different things: One is a seminar and the other is a PhD. Similarly, the entry requirements are quite different. Despite this, I've heard some who have taken the classes frame it to potential customers in such a way that they implied much more; that they had effectively "apprenticed" with Ervin. I said it's possible to detect a common DNA in the apprentice guitars, which is not surprising since - as Jason said - they all build the same guitar (Ervin's) day-in-day-out for a couple of years. I cannot detect anywhere near the same degree of commonality between those builders I've played who have taken the class alone. And that would have to be expected given their much more limited direct exposure to Somogyi's work and indeed making it. Having said all that, some of the very best guitars I've played have come from luthiers who've been nowhere near Oakland. They just don't sound like Somogyis, that's all. Cheers, Steve |
#38
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Just wanted to say thank you to Jason for taking the time to write those two lengthy and fascinating posts. A much appreciated insight!
Dan
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danburne.com Bown OMX Lutz/Braz Eastman AR405E & T486 Kostal MDC German/claro and OM Euro/Madrose Larrivee L-05MT Lowden O35cx cedar/EIR, New Lady, Baritone, O12 and O12-12 McIlroy A25c custom Cedar/Kew black walnut Montgomery fan fret parlour Euro/ebony Sands Baritone Swiss/Ovangkol (another due 2022) Wingert Model E German/Braz Yairi 1960s Soloists |
#39
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Same here, thank you for your comments Jason !
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#40
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Well said.
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Good, fast, cheap. Choose any two. |
#41
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What marvelous, lucid, and detailed explanations. Thank you, Jason, for taking the time to write so extensively. As a university professor, I'd especially like to point out the wisdom I see in these particular remarks:
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#42
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#43
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This thread is nearly four years old.
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#44
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Really glad someone resurrected it! I, for one, wouldn't have seen it otherwise. A good read.
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#45
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No kidding!
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Cool thread bubbles back to the surface... Merry, happy, ho ho ho Paul
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3 John Kinnaird SS 12c CUSTOMS: Big Maple/Cedar Dread Jumbo Spanish Cedar/WRC Jumbo OLD Brazilian RW/WRC R.T 2 12c sinker RW/Claro 96 422ce bought new! 96 LKSM 12 552ce 12x12 J. Stepick Bari Weissy WRC/Walnut More |