Viloin V. Guitar

[Ricketts]

Maybe a dumb question, but I have been playing behind a singer (Church) with Violin (trio)- nice sound, except the violin drowns us out. So, wondering why such a small wooden instrument is twice as loud as my 000 12 fret Martin? Can guitar builders learn anything from violin makers? Just seems contrary to common sense. Thanks

[RodB]

The energy of each note on a guitar is from a single pluck of the string(s), whereas a bowed instrument like a violin benefits from a near constant input of energy as long as the bow is drawn across the strings. Quite a difference therefore to the energy input, regardless of the efficiency of the design.

[cmd612]

I suspect a lot of it has to do more with frequencies than volume; the higher pitch of the violin makes it easier to hear.

[Rodger Knox]

That's the difference between bowed and plucked instruments. Bowed instruments get continuous power to the strings, plucked instruments do not. There are a lot of guitar makers that also build violins, we do understand how they work, and there's nothing there to help make guitars louder.
edit:2 posts while I was typing, getting old and slow...

[Steve DeRosa]

Originally Posted by Ricketts

...the violin drowns us out...Can guitar builders learn anything from violin makers?

Um, yeah, they did - they're called archtop guitars, and a nice old 17"/18" road warrior from the '30s/40s will have no problem being heard over a full-boogie 20-piece horn section, much less a solo violin...

[Ricketts]

Wow - hadn't thought about the bow/energy. That makes sense. Thank You!!

[Alan Carruth]

Those old archtops were subject to the same limitations as all other guitars. A friend of mine saw one of Freddie Green's 19" Strombergs at a vintage show once. The action at the 12th fret was about 1/4", and the low E was something like a .070". He asked if it was the original setup, and was assured it was. It took a LOT of effort to fret a chord, but when he hit it he said that everybody in the ballroom jumped and looked in his direction. That thing had about eight times as much energy going into it as a normal guitar, but it's hardly surprising that Freddie never took a solo.

As Scottie said: "You can't break the laws of physics!"

[roylor4]

Originally Posted by cmd612

I suspect a lot of it has to do more with frequencies than volume; the higher pitch of the violin makes it easier to hear.

RodB response makes a lot of sense, but your response was my gut response too.

As a longtime Blues harp player, it is pretty easy for a small 8 oz harmonica to drown out an acoustic too.

More continuous and higher pitch.

[The Bard Rocks]

Think: how loud is a violin played pizzicato? And how loud when bowed? There's your explanation.

That's why I like to have a sound system in place when playing with fiddles; you can balance these things. Without monitors, I also try to have another musician between me and the fiddler when I can arrange that.

[Alan Carruth]

Harmonicas also have constant energy input.

Some of this discussion is getting into the differences between 'power', 'loudness' and 'carry'. To me, 'power' is what you'd measure with a dB meter. 'Loudness' is the perception of power up close, and depends on a number of things like the spectrum of the instrument and onset and decay transients. 'Carry' is how well you can hear it at a distance, and adds to the variables that determine 'loudness' some things like how directional the radiation pattern of the instrument is, particularly at high frequencies, and the way the signal varies over time. Of the three the only one that's objective is power.

The violin benefits from having it's output in the range where our hearing is generally most sensitive, so that it doesn't need to achieve a high power level in order to be heard above other things. Many good violins have a lot of power in the 'singer's formant' range, around 3kHz, while very few other instruments do. This is the range of frequencies that allow for consonant discrimination, and is also where hearing acuity is highest for those of you with 'normal' hearing. If the player adds in a little vibrato so that the tone varies over time that makes it even easier to pick the sound out. That's what singers do, and it's why you can pick out Brunhilde above the sound of the orchestra, even though she's producing less actual power than, say, the French horn. The harmonica might well benefit from a similar mechanism.

I could go on, but the point is that all of this gets very complicated. Withal, it's a fact that if you measure the actual average output power of a violin as opposed to a guitar, the fiddle will win. The only way you're going to make a guitar come close is the way Freddie Green did; use much heavier strings and higher action. It would be nice if we could make the guitar more efficient, and get it that way, but that's not likely. The guitar is already more efficient than most instruments; at least double the efficiency of the of the violin, I'm told, and far more efficient than, say, the brass instruments. And so on.

[sutherland]

I think the violin has a very focused and sustaining sound that builds on top of itself. In addition, I think the general frequencies that the violin covers are in the upper mid-range.

[guitar george]

Here's an example where the violin overpowers a whole rock band. Best example starts at 4:35.

[Hurricane Ramon]

#1 :
It's an awesomely made violin and when that is accomplished the instrument is capable of unreal volume .
#2 :
Guitar can't compete - note Mexican Mariachi bands and the arrangement of guitars vs violins .
#3 :
In terms of audio power in instruments a simple harmonica in the hands and lungs of a master can be huge in volume .
I'm that guy - I have been able to generate enough volume to compete with a bands acoustic instruments through the
small club P.A. with an acoustic diatonic blues harp and no mic near me .
#4 :
Another factor your competing with is the room . Some rooms make some instruments explode big time and other retard their sound too .

So - what did guitarists in the past do to compensate for the relative soft volume of an acoustic guitar - - -

#5 :
Resonator guitars were the answer . I have a 000


¡ They can compete with brass bands !

EZ :

HR

[dmckean44]

Comparing a guitar to violin isn't really fair, violins play over a very narrow frequency in comparison. A more fair comparison would be guitar vs cello since they cover approximately the same range. A cello is quieter than a violin but slightly louder than a guitar.

[Mandobart]

A violin is also an octave higher than a guitar. The higher frequencies cut through better. I see it a lot playing bluegrass where the mandolin (same tuning as a violin, but so much more than a pizzicato fiddle) can easily be heard over 2 -3 guitars.