Live Acoustic Set-Up

[DavaDog2000]

Hello, I'm looking to form a good set up for a live acoustic solo gig. Here's what I have so far:

Laney LA65C Acoustic Amplifier
BOSS BR-600 Digital Recorder (Used for the FX)
Sennheiser e835 Microphone (Dynamic Type)
Taylor 310ce Acoustic Guitar

so currently, I run the guitar & mic through regular guitar & mic cables to the BR-600, apply FX (e.g. Reverb & Delay), then run that to the amp, using a guitar lead from the headphones output socket to the instrument input on the amp.

One issue I encountered was when I panned anything from the BR-600 Left, the sound from the amp comes way into the foreground (Volume increase). when I pan it right, it goes into the background (volume decreases to nearly nothing). So basicly, instead of the sound being ommitted left/right, it goes back/forward. I'm planning on getting a 2xRCA Phono stereo to 2XRCA Phono stereo Audio cable to connect the BR-600 ('Line L/R Output') to Amp ('CD In'). will this solve the issue? or at least, will this be a better way to connect the two, rather than with a guitar lead?

Also, should I plug the guitar direct to the amp (and utilise the Amp's built-in reverb) & ONLY the mic through the BR-600, so that I have more individual control over the 2 inputs (Mic & Guitar)?

I don't have a large budget to improve my set-up much, but is there anything that will be beneficial enough to me to make a difference? I don't own ANY guitar or mic fx pedals, so that's why I simply use what gear I do have (i.e. the BR-600 as an FX processor).

A product I've seen which may be a good replacement for the BR-600 is the TC Helicon VoiceLive Play GTX (Approx. £300). What do you think? Would this be a good idea?

Any advice is welcomed!

regards,
Dava

P.s - I don't quite understand the anti-feedback controls on my amp, so can anyone explain this to me? (what should I set this at?)

Amp Picture:
http://img.audiofanzine.com/image.ph...oduct_id=22663

[MikeBmusic]

When you were plugging out of the BR600 headphone to the amp, you were using a mono (TS cable), so only getting the left channel's output. You were probalby overdriving the input circuit of hte amp, too. Using the lineouts form the BR600 to the CD input of the amp will be better, but I suspect that will then bypass the preamp controls on the amp (EQ, etc.) - that's usually how those inputs work on amps.
Having had a BR600, I found the built-in FX fairly limited, and I can't imagine using it as a live FX processor. The TC will definitely give you better sound and options.

[Cocovian]

Headphone outputs are stereo and instrument cables are mono, that is why you are having issues , even if you buy a stereo cable the input of your amp is mono too,so you will have the same problem, you could use the rca option as you mentioned but you will lose control over the volumes..

I would lose the boss and plug straight in to the amp , both the guitar end the mic , and use the amps fx , you can always add a delay pedal or any other fx pedal later on,

I do own a tc helicon and i like it a lot , the sound quality is great although it lacks a bit in terms of how deep you can tweak the fx , but you can still get great sounds from it most of the time

If you experience feedback at loud volumes the first thing to do is press the phase button on your amp, that will reverse the phase of your guitar soundwaves, and very likely fix the problem , of course sometimes you will need also to play with the antifeedback buttons to help further, what you do is turn the feedback volume at around 3 oclock then move around the frequency button until you hear feedback getting louder then you turn the feedback volume button back to the left until the feedback goes away, what you are doing is finding the frequency that feedsback and reducing its level down so it doesnt feedback any more , like a parametric eq

Hope this helps

[lschwart]

As others have suggested, the BR-600 is superfluous in this set up--except in so far as it adds delay. You're avoiding the really simple solution offered by your amp itself. It's designed to amplify an acoustic guitar and a vocal mic (mic in channel 1, guitar in channel 2), and it gives you reverb too--probably all you need for a solo guitar/vocal gig. You can also put some chorus on the guitar if you like. What exactly were you using the delay on the BR-600 for (as a guitar effect, for your vocal, or both)?

A small amp like your Laney is a very good starting-point for very small local gigs. As your experience grows, you might later want to move up to something like a small PA set up that can handle larger gigs, and even then you'll still be able to use your Laney as a stage monitor.

I'd say, plug into your amp and get used to using it and its controls. At some point, if you want to mess around with more effects, look into some pedals for your guitar or a vocal effects processor like the TC. But it's a good idea to know exactly what you want to do, musically, before investing.

Louis

[Methos1979]

Dava,

Hello and welcome to the AGF! You've come to the right place for information.

A lot depends on the size of the gigs you foresee playing as well as the type of music. I don't know much about the Laney amps but I would definitely think that running your guitar AND mic straight into the amp and use the onboard effects there is the way to go. For most 'acoustic' gigs you don't need much anyway, just some reverb is usually more than enough.

If you can swing it in the budget then the TC Voicelive GTX is a great unit. There are several great TC Voicetone units. We just recently started using their Harmony GXT pedal and it's great. I plug the guitar and mic into that and it mixes them together for a single output and adds some decent reverb. There are other basic effects as well and then of course there's the harmony capability which is awesome.

We can use this single pedal to put both mic and guitar out to a single balanced XLR output to an amp or PA. I have a very minimal set up - Guitar into Red-Eye pre-am into the TC into or amp or PA. It sounds very, very good.

Here's all the pedal board I use:

[lschwart]

Hi Methos: in that picture, what is the DI out on the Red Eye hooked up to? Are you sending a signal to the TC for it to read the harmonies and a separate guitar signal direct to the board?

Louis

[Methos1979]

Louis,

Yes, that is exactly the case. The effects loop out goes to the TC guitar in so it can read the key for the harmonies. (Notice that the Guitar level on the TC - top button, third from right - is all the way off.)

The Red-Eye XLR balance out goes to channel 1 of my SA220 and the TC XLR out goes to channel 2. This set up allows me a great deal of flexibility. If I'm going somewhere and there is limited inputs I can just dial up the Guitar level on the TC and it blends the guitar with the mic output. Super simple.

Lately, I've been playing around with having both outputs going for guitar. It fattens up the tone even more and allows me to make use of additional, albeit different reverb.

Considering the simplicity of the set up, it allows for a great deal of options.

[lschwart]

Originally Posted by Methos1979

Louis,

Yes, that is exactly the case. The effects loop out goes to the TC guitar in so it can read the key for the harmonies. (Notice that the Guitar level on the TC - top button, third from right - is all the way off.)

The Red-Eye XLR balance out goes to channel 1 of my SA220 and the TC XLR out goes to channel 2. This set up allows me a great deal of flexibility. If I'm going somewhere and there is limited inputs I can just dial up the Guitar level on the TC and it blends the guitar with the mic output. Super simple.

Lately, I've been playing around with having both outputs going for guitar. It fattens up the tone even more and allows me to make use of additional, albeit different reverb.

Considering the simplicity of the set up, it allows for a great deal of options.

Cool! Thanks for the explanation.

Louis

[DavaDog2000]

Hi, thanks for the replies!


Q. if I decide to run the guitar & mic directly to the amp, should the mic go to

the 'Mic' input, or to the 'aux' input? I don't currently have a mic lead that's

XLR to XLR at the moment, so If I set up without the BR-600, I run the mic through

the AUX input. What is the difference? (Note: the Mic is for vocals, forgot to make

that clear, but I'm sure you realised that).




lschwart (Louis): "What exactly were you using the delay on the BR-600 for (as a

guitar effect, for your vocal, or both)?" - The BR-600 has a 'SIMUL' FX setting,

which effects both the Guitar & Microphone Simultaniously. Usually, I select one of

the SIMUL pre-sets (e.g. ACOUSTIC + COMP) which adds some compression to the mic,

etc. Then I send some reverb and delay to the input source, which is automatically

both the Guitar & Amp. Another plus side to the BR-600 is the Inbuilt Tuner (I know

it's not a floor pedal one, but it's at least on-hand).




Methos1979 : Thanks for the reply - do you have an audio demonstration of the sound

you get with your set-up? and just to keep it simple, can you give me a list of the

names of what I see in the picture (I know its the red-eye, and the TC Helicon

Harmony GTX, but as for wires etc. - how many leads/cables do you have, what types

& what connects to what?) I've not had any patch cables before, so can you

recommend any good ones? (preferably ones you don't have to cut & solder yourself)

Basically, what I'm trying to acheive is the best vocal sound I can get out of my

mic. The guitar plugged direct sounds alright with a touch of reverb, but the mic

dry doesn't really do anything to enhance my vocal performance. Plus, I'm not sure

about the in-built reverb of the Laney amp. There's not any play in it, no

alteration to the decay time etc. just purely a 1-10 control...




The type of music I'll be performing is acoustic pop/rock, plus some acoustic

blues/rock stuff.




Q. Can I get a general idea of the settings you use (regarding reverb/delay/

compression/EQ, or anything else) to get a decent sound - for the mic or the

guitar? I'm very much a beginner when it comes to knowing what settings I should

have tings on etc., so bear with me. How many ms (milliseconds) should I set the

delay for and at what strength, etc. in general? Do I have to alter the delay to

match the tempo of each song?



Here's an idea of the type of sound I'm hoping to acheive.What would I have to do

(either in purchasing gear or what settings do I apply) to acheive this type of

sound?:

Michael Paynter - Weary Stars (Acoustic) [HiFi Store]
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1PNsIzy6GTo

Michael Paynter - Weary Stars (Acoustic) [Shopping Mall] - More Delay on the mic is audiable to me here, what settings do I apply to get this?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ofP4qLfSvp8

Steven Childs - She's The End (Acoustic) [The Hive]
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8jY_3rx7TSc

Paramore - Still Into You (Acoustic) - there's multiple guitars here. It's the lead vocal microphone setting i'm interested in mainly.. Plus, It's a sennheiser mic.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=maIVkdW-beU

I'm not hoping for the 'perfect' sonic production for my live performance (which

would obviously be complex & expensive), just the best that I can possibly acheive

with what I have on hand, and/or for a couple of hundred of pounds worth of gear

(pedals, etc.)



Q. What delay fx pedal do you suggest, if I'm to discard the BR-600 which is currently my only source of delay?



Last Q!. I'm going to upgrade my Mic & guitar cables. I'd like to get high quality

ones, but not spend too much. will approx. £20 each get me something good enough? I've heard about the neutrik silent-type guitar leads being good (to avoid

annoying pops/cracks), but I dont know what brands are good.. What do you suggest?



I probably forgot to cover something there, but that'll do for now!

thanks again, Dava.

[lschwart]

Well, the first thing you should do is get an XLR female to XLR male cable for your e835 (you don't need to spend a fortune on this cable, just don't get a cheap one and look for something with ends made by a reputable company, like Neutrik) and plug that into the mic channel of the amp. Then plug your Taylor into the other channel and experiment with the EQ, reverb, and chorus available to you right there on the amp. Work on your mic technique, too. Find the sweetspot for your voice near the grill and learn to stay oriented to as you sing, backing off a little as you get louder and coming back in for the softer parts, taking care with your plosives, etc. This, along with basic vocal technique and natural ability/vocal timber is 90% of what makes the singers you link to sound so great. Effects are not going to do it for you.

Now, that's not to say they aren't important, however. If you find that the reverb on your amp isn't doing it for you and you want that little bit of delay either along with it or even instead of it, the most efficient way to start experimenting with processing your vocal is with one of the various vocal effects units available out there. The T.C. Helicon units are popular and easy to use and offer you a single button setting that automatically adds a little compression and some EQ, and that can give your vocals a little of that polished, "professional" sound. Then you can experiment with adding one or some of the various effects (reverbs and delays and other things, including automatic harmonies).

But I think you may be surprised at how good you can get yourself sounding with just the amp and some reverb, so work on that first and look for an effects unit later--and only if you find you really need it to get the sound you're after.

Louis

[DavaDog2000]

http://www.designacable.com/micropho...one-leads.html
XLR to XLR - are these good? and which one?


thanks for the reply Louis, that's good advice.

[lschwart]

Originally Posted by DavaDog2000

http://www.designacable.com/micropho...one-leads.html
XLR to XLR - are these good? and which one?


thanks for the reply Louis, that's good advice.

I don't know much about shopping for these things in the UK, so I don't know if this is the best place to buy a cable (in terms of price and selection), but on that page, I'd avoid the very expensive options and get this one in whatever length will allow you to stand or sit at a comfortable distance from your amp (somewhere I'd guess between 5 and 8 meters of cable):

http://www.designacable.com/micropho...lr-to-xlr.html

That will do the job reliably.

Louis

[DavaDog2000]

great. Yeah, it seems to be a place which makes custom cables... is that alright, as opposed to non-custom? thanks again Louis

[lschwart]

Originally Posted by DavaDog2000

great. Yeah, it seems to be a place which makes custom cables... is that alright, as opposed to non-custom? thanks again Louis

It makes no difference--except perhaps in price. For cables like this, good basic design and components is all you need to get the job done. All good quality balanced cables are quiet and pass sound perfectly well. The reason it's worth looking for ends made by good companies like Neutrik is that the ends are the weak-point in these cable, the spot where they'll fail first if they fail. So custom or not, if the cable itself and the ends are of decent quality, you'll be fine. It's a good idea, by the way, to buy a spare anyway. And learn how to wind and wrap them properly so they don't get strained and tangled.

I have about 25 XLR to XLR cables that I use for my small PA (for band and small acoustic ensemble gigs). Thye are of several different brands readily available here in the States (Mogami, Yorkville, ProCo, Live Wire), all but the ProCo have Neutrik ends (the ProCo's have their own brand of ends, and they seem to be of comparable quality to the Neutriks). I try to treat them well, and I haven't had a single failure, and some of these cables are 7 years old now. They all sound exactly the same, too.

Guitar cable are a different story, but that's another conversation.

Louis

[Methos1979]

Originally Posted by DavaDog2000

Hi, thanks for the replies!

Methos1979 : Thanks for the reply - do you have an audio demonstration of the sound you get with your set-up? and just to keep it simple, can you give me a list of the names of what I see in the picture (I know its the red-eye, and the TC Helicon Harmony GTX, but as for wires etc. - how many leads/cables do you have, what types & what connects to what?) I've not had any patch cables before, so can you recommend any good ones? (preferably ones you don't have to cut & solder yourself)

Basically, what I'm trying to acheive is the best vocal sound I can get out of my mic. The guitar plugged direct sounds alright with a touch of reverb, but the mic dry doesn't really do anything to enhance my vocal performance. Plus, I'm not sure about the in-built reverb of the Laney amp. There's not any play in it, no alteration to the decay time etc. just purely a 1-10 control...

The type of music I'll be performing is acoustic pop/rock, plus some acoustic blues/rock stuff.

Dava - I'll do my best to answer your questions for me. First let me say that I am also pretty much a beginner still as well. My wife and I have been doing this for only about a year and are just starting to find our sound and hone our act!

The cables I use (both the XLR, guitar and patch cables) are you basic, run-of-the-mill guitar store cables. They are nothing special. While you certainly can get very cheap, noisy and bad sounding cables, I think for the most part you can also easily get inexpensive great sound cables. I don't think that spending big money on heavy duty, ultra high-quality cables is worth it. In my opinion you don't get any rewards for better sound doing this - at least not at our current level of skill and equipment. Once we get much better and we are trying to squeeze every last bit of perfect sound quality out of our rigs and our signal path, then maybe. But to do so right now quite frankly is putting the cart before the horse.

Since you are so new you should worry less about your cables and equipment and worry more about playing and practicing. Get the best equipment you can afford with regards to a decent guitar and amp and then just play, play, play. While it's good to have a sound in your head you are shooting for, that will be more a function of your technique and abilities than your equipment. So don't worry about cables and such. Every cable you see in my set up is the bargain bottom in my local guitar store. In fact, the XLR cables were a single long 25' cable that they guy cut in half and spliced on the other end to make it into two, shorter cables!

Your lack of liking the sound of your vocal mic is probably your mic. What is it? A decent sounding mic is definitely going to help. You should be able to find a decent sounding mic for around $50. But what you're playing it through will also be key. Again, I don't know much about the acoustic amp you're using but if it's on the smaller side (physically and wattage) then you are only going to get so much good sound out of it especially for vocals. Pick up some sort of dedicated vocal sound effects box (such as something from TC Voicetone series) and that will at least allow you to dial in a lot more varied and quality effects to make the vocals sound bigger.

Here is a video clip of my wife and I practicing the song Runaway. The audio quality is only so-so because it's recorded on a cell phone and because, well, we're just not that good! But it does sound okay and a lot of that is the fact that our amp is the Fishman SA220, which is a great sounding acoustic amp. This clip also demos the neat sound of the TC Harmony GXT pedal. The signal path for guitar: Martin 000-28EC (with DTAR Multi-Source pickup system connected to the pre-amp with a basic 1/4" mono guitar cable) -> Red-Eye (1/4" guitar cable in, XLR out) -> Fishman SA220 (note the guitar signal also splits out to the TC Harmony pedal via a VERY cheap 1/4" patch cable for key recognition). Vocals: TC mic (basic XLR mic cable out to) -> TC Harmony GXT (basic XLR cable out to) -> Fishman SA220.



Let me know if you have any other questions. I would recommend experimenting by borrowing equipment from friends or stores that allow you to, and also going out and checking out what others are playing with. There's a ton of stuff out there that will get you the sound you hear in your head. It's just a matter of finding it. And even when you've found it, you'll change things around as you progress! That's half the fun - and why we're always SO poor around here!!!