What am I doing wrong? (K&K mini)

[Rexfordbridge]

I have a current setup of J-45 with K&K mini -> Fireeye Red eye Preamp --> Allen & Heath ZED 10-FX --> QSC K-10's.

The problem is the guitar sounds very "direct" to me. There's no shimmer. It sounds like if you plugged a stratocaster directly into the board. Tonight I plugged my guitar directly into a Fishman Loudbox Artist and I thought it sounded great. It had a much more natural tone than what I've been getting with the board and the PA speakers.

My question, what am I doing wrong? Guys always talk about how great the K&K sounds, and it did sound great to my ears through the Fishman, but not through the PA.

[gibbyguy]

Originally Posted by Rexfordbridge

I have a current setup of J-45 with K&K mini -> Fireeye Red eye Preamp --> Allen & Heath ZED 10-FX --> QSC K-10's.

The problem is the guitar sounds very "direct" to me. There's no shimmer. It sounds like if you plugged a stratocaster directly into the board. Tonight I plugged my guitar directly into a Fishman Loudbox Artist and I thought it sounded great. It had a much more natural tone than what I've been getting with the board and the PA speakers.

My question, what am I doing wrong? Guys always talk about how great the K&K sounds, and it did sound great to my ears through the Fishman, but not through the PA.

The signal coming from a K&K mini is a pure passive signal which needs processed. A PA board does not contain a broad enough mid range eliminator to tame the heavy mids of the K&K. That's why most PA systems need a good multi band equalizer. The Fishman amp on the other hand has a built in preamp with a very broad mid-range control. You can just about eliminate the mid-range, at least within the limits of passive guitar transducers. If you ran the K&K through a good preamp first - such as the UltraSound DI Plus, Or K&K Pure XLR Preamp, or Fishman Pro EQ preamp - You would get a pretty decent sound from the PA.

I use the Fishman Loudbox Artist for general playing, but when I need to run that same signal through a PA, I just use the XLR DI out in the back of the amp.

[jseth]

Apparently, Gibbyguy did not read the original post... Rex is running through a Red-Eye pre-amp, and I have heard nothing but good things about them...

Rex, are setting all your gain stages correctly? (Google "gain-staging" if you don't know what I mean...). It sounds like the channel volume is way high and the Redeye too low; in any event, good gain staging is crucial to getting the best sound out of your rig.

It's funny (curious); the tone you describe is very similar to the tone I heard from my Goodall-K&K equipped guitar through my Bose system, BEFORE I added the K&K PURE XLR to the signal chain... after that, it sounds very nice, although I still feel that it needs a microphone for breath and some string noise...

Those K&K Mini pickups ARE really direct... just whatever tone come off the bridgeplate, with a little residual from whatever happens on the top, near the bridge... it's a very "in-your-face" type of tone, certainly. What YOU do with it is up to you.

If your mixer has them, try a little fx with it; not too much, just a little delay and a bit of reverb. That should soften up the tone nicely... but I don't think that's what you were concerned with...

Did you run JUST the guitar w/ K&K into the Fishman Loudbox, WITHOUT the Redeye in the loop? If so, that might be your trouble; maybe the Redeye is not the pre-amp for you?

Hope you get it sussed to your satisfaction...

[akafloyd]

The Red-Eye doesn't really have much to control its gain except for the boost function, make sure that's off first. My guess is that you have the input gain too high on the board, check your pre-fader-level. Otherwise, you could check the system without the Red-Eye going straight into one of the guitar inputs. A little reverb could help but you should get a good sound without it. Adding a mic will definitely help but, again, it should be decent without it. I hope this helps. Good luck!!

[Mbroady]

Have you tried more then one PA system?
I have run a K&K equipped guitar through many different systems. A majority of times it sounds great. But every once in a while the PA system sounds like carp. Could be the board or it could be the speakers (or monitors) or both. This is with the K&K pre and internal mic. The mic will help you get that beautiful airy sound with an ok pa system but some Set ups Will give BAD sound no matter what you plug into them

[nrand]

I run a similar setup with all my acoustics live, K&Ks to Redeye to PA via just a very small dose of FX [rev & dl]. I do find I also like a little comp/eq in the inserts of my PA mixer - Mackie 1202VZL. This gives me just a little shimmer while keeping things natural sounding.

As was suggested, I rarely hit the boost on the Redeye except for occasional solo details as I am mainly a singer. People do comment favourably on my guitar tone frequently so it seems to me it might just be a matter of taking some time to tweak things slowly and listen as you go.

Taylor and Martin: K&K > Redeye [fx in loop] > Mackie [eq/comp insert] > HD12A

12 String: K&K > Redeye > Mackie > [eq/comp insert] > FX in Aux send/return > HD12A

[JRay]

You have some great gear there Rexford and so you should have no problems with your sound. I use pretty much the same setup except the first and last bit and I get a good sound, I think!!

Martin J-41S > Red-eye > ZED 10FX >> Yamaha Stagepass 300 (set flat)

As Floyd said, first try plugging direct into Channel 3 or 4 Line inputs on the ZED (10Meg ohm FET based inputs). Then set the mid frequency on this channel to around 750Hz and this should give you a similar channel to the Loudbox which offers 5 Meg input and Mid control centered at 750Hz.

Then knock the mid gain back to about 9oclock on the dial (leave the frequency set to 750) and play around with the EQ and a bit of subtle reverb

Can you get a good sound then?

You should get a better sound using the Red-Eye as it's 1 Meg Ohm input is better matched to the K&K and the balanced XLR out should give you a better signal to noise. Keep your guitar lead into the Red-Eye no longer than about 6ft, you can use any length of Balanced XLR cable between the Red-Eye and the mixer.

Let us know how you get on as I don't think you need to invest in any more gear, you have it all right there!!

[lschwart]

I'll also add that you may need to alter your expectations of how things will sound with a PA speaker. The K10 is designed to project sound out into a room at reasonable volume levels. It's not going to sound as good closer up as the Loudbox, but it will project better and sound better at a distance.

Louis

[JRay]

It's not going to sound as good closer up as the Loudbox, but it will project better and sound better at a distance.

Good point there Louis!

[ljguitar]

Hi Rexford...
You may need to adjust the pieces, but you have all the right parts to get a good acoustic sound.

I generally find I like the sound of my K&K rigs better through acoustic amps than through PA systems, but find that people in the audience like the sound of it even when I'm not totally pleased with it. Of course they are comparing it to other guitars plugged into the same PA, not to my amp.

I'm running K&K-->preamp-->simultaneously out to board/out to acoustic amp. Depending on the quality of the PA system, and experience of the tech, it sounds better/worse in the PA.

PA systems are best monitored from out in the room you actually play in with the cabinet elevated to proper height in the room, not from 4 feet away.

[Larpy]

My experience with K&K pickups is that they can sound really good in some guitars and just so-so in others. I installed one in a Santa Cruz H that produced a phenomenal amplified sound, but a K&K I installed in a Collings OM1 sounded generic and one-dimensional, nothing like the guitar it was amplifying. I've had similarly inconsistent results with other guitars I put K&K pickups into (Taylor, Martin, another Collings).

On their website, K&K reports that the number one reason for bad sound with their pickups is not using enough glue when installing the piezos, so that might account for the inconsistency.

Right now my stage guitar is a Lowden and, since there are no bridge pin holes to use for alignment, I decided to forego K&K and tried a PUTW #27 pickup instead (same idea as K&K but easier installation). Sounds fabulous through my RedEye.

[Rexfordbridge]

Thank you guys for the help. The key to making my sound much better was to dial out about 75% of the mids to get rid of the mud.