Achieving tube warmth with vst's , and...

[Doug Young]

Originally Posted by kurth

So the conventional AGF wisdom is forget a tube mic if you don't have a treated room.

Hmm, I may have missed that. What would tubes have to do with room treatment? I think the advice is that the more sensitive the mic, the more it will pick up *everything* including the sound of a bad room. But there are plenty of non-tube mics that are very sensitive mics, and I imagine there are some low-end less than stellar tube mics, too.

I hate treated rooms. They're antithetical to creativity. They remind me of being trapped on a spaceship. So is that true for you ? Thanks for the plugins k

Seems odd to me. There's no reason a good-sounding room can't be a creative space, and look any way you want. There's a lot of creativity going on in studios all over the world. What I find inspiring is good sound. A bad room, where everything I play sounds poor is very un-inspiring.

[kurth]

Originally Posted by Doug Young

Hmm, I may have missed that. What would tubes have to do with room treatment? I think the advice is that the more sensitive the mic, the more it will pick up *everything* including the sound of a bad room. But there are plenty of non-tube mics that are very sensitive mics, and I imagine there are some low-end less than stellar tube mics, too.



Seems odd to me. There's no reason a good-sounding room can't be a creative space, and look any way you want. There's a lot of creativity going on in studios all over the world. What I find inspiring is good sound. A bad room, where everything I play sounds poor is very un-inspiring.

doug...it was in one of my recent threads , one or two of the experts saying exactly this, and it wasn't challenged to my recollection....ie that a great mic won't be perceptible until a room is properly treated. A recording studio might be better for executing the best spec'd audio recording, however they aren't the best for writing material. Ever see a photo of Francis Bacon's studio ? I've never seen a photo of one treated recording studio that would entice me to write some great lyrics. As I said, they remind me of space ships. Dark with angled surfaces. I get claustrophobic. For my inspiration, give me a big open space with a few nice rugs and comfy furniture and art hanging on the walls. A solid stone house is preferable , but a log cabin would suffice. As well a space that does more than just music. Some books? Other compu's doing other things? A great view maybe....sounds like my space. So it's just that our goals are different. Maybe one day I'll have some music up and we can continue the discussion. If I don't cross over first.

[Chipotle]

Originally Posted by kurth

For my inspiration, give me a big open space with a few nice rugs and comfy furniture and art hanging on the walls.

No reason you can't have this *and* have some acoustic panels on the walls. They come in various colors, or you can even have them printed with your own designs. They also don't have to cover every single surface. There can also be comfy upholstered furniture, which will also absorb & disperse some sound (I often see pics of couches in studios), bookcases and other things to act as diffusers, and even some "live" surfaces. Just because you see pics of sterile, modern rooms doesn't mean everything must be like that.

But better equipment will pick up more nuance... which includes echoes, flutter, bass buildup and other unwanted things. Thus the recommendation to treat your space first, then buy the spendy gear.

[Sasquatchian]

Originally Posted by kurth

Sas....which Lauten do you own ? I'm jealous. So the conventional AGF wisdom is forget a tube mic if you don't have a treated room. I hate treated rooms. They're antithetical to creativity. They remind me of being trapped on a spaceship. So is that true for you ? Thanks for the plugins k

I have a pair of the Eden LT-386's which weigh just under 4 lbs a piece. They have three settings for low end hi-pass filters, three different polar patterns, cardioid, figure eight and omni, and three settings for high end which they call forward, normal and gentle - I think, but you can have either a slight boost in the high end, a slight depression or whatever they call neutral.

Most of the time I'm recording Gee playing accordion and she's in what I call the print/scanning room in my photo studio. There are half a dozen panels of 703 on the walls plus some furni blankets over the Epson 9900 and drum scanner and it really sounds great in there. At one point we were getting a reflection off the flat file cabinets in there so I just leaned a couple of 703 panels up against them and the reflections were gone. And for most of what we're recording - for movie and tv soundtrack stuff, we don't want much room ambience anyway. Much better to have too little and have the composer/mixer add it back in as needed.

Where I record myself in out in my "control room" as it were. Ha. We built five 4' x 6' rolling panels of the Owens Corning 703 4 inches thick, making a loose paneled in room, if you can call it that, keeping it more or less separated from the rest of the photo space with its eighteen foot tall ceilings and lots of reflective surfaces.

I don't feel confined in the least in my little control room/recording area and Gee is more than fine recording in our little iso room previously described. There's a non squeak/creak wooden chair, a music stand, a great pair of Shure 1540 headphones and room enough for several mics, and since it's a room within a room, it's very quiet in there - about 30dbA or maybe 38dbC and while I can hear the L.A. Metro Expo Line from the main studio space, you can't hear it in the recording room or the many ambulances that are running up and down La Brea all day every day.

All I know is that most of the time we get to record the queues at our place and what we're recording is at least as good and most of the time better than when they require her to be at their studios. That kinda validates what we're doing here as the proof really is in the audio quality.

All of the tracks we're recording for soundtracks or other people's CD's or other project never have any effects on them but they are recorded most of the time with the tube mics and always through the previously mentioned UAD Neve pre-amp plug-in. It's really those two parts of the signal that have the biggest impact in my opinion, and when I've recorded with the Audio Technica's, which are great, they're missing the warmth of the tube in the mic. And the same with the pre-amp plug-in and when you combine those two together, it's really something.

Now obviously when we're doing our own projects the tracks will get whatever is appropriate in terms of effects, but mostly some reverb where the UAD Capital Chambers is my favorite and some compression where it'll be the UAD Fairchild plug-in for warmth or the Fab Filter single or multi-band for a clean compressor.

I also knew that if we were going to convince a lot of these film composers to let us record on our own that I was going to have to up the game both in equipment and my personal skills, but all of these folks are constantly telling us how great everything sounds and amazed how fast we can turn projects around. And it's not all fun and games. Some of these movie projects are insanely complex in terms of tempo changing all over the place and time signatures as well, making is so a lot of what we have to do is punching in two bars here and four or eight bars over there, or because so often they don't know how to write for accordion and forget that there are only 41 keys and not 88, that sometimes Gee has to re-write not the spot or more than a few times, play part of a queue on one instrument and finish off punching in with a different accordion that has a different range of notes or even pull out the super rare bass accordion.

[kurth]

Originally Posted by Chipotle

No reason you can't have this *and* have some acoustic panels on the walls. They come in various colors, or you can even have them printed with your own designs. They also don't have to cover every single surface. There can also be comfy upholstered furniture, which will also absorb & disperse some sound (I often see pics of couches in studios), bookcases and other things to act as diffusers, and even some "live" surfaces. Just because you see pics of sterile, modern rooms doesn't mean everything must be like that.

But better equipment will pick up more nuance... which includes echoes, flutter, bass buildup and other unwanted things. Thus the recommendation to treat your space first, then buy the spendy gear.

no, sorry there is a reason for me at least. Walls are for art. I hang things that influence me. And it's a nice size room. Acoustic panels are generally not considered art. I guess if I wanted to paint some custom panels, it'd work....but I prefer books....and then art hanging to define the aesthetic nature of the space. I have thought about stuffing the thickness of a painting with foam....but I'm not sure if the reflective nature of paint wouldn't make it a moot point. Honestly the space existed long before me, as a creative space....and the recording part just must conform to it's intrinsic aesthetic nature. I am thinking about one of those new mini mic booths made out of acoustic foam , though, that surrounds the mic 'cept for the singin' hole. Truthfully, someone more knowlegeable than I would have to point out bad effects in my recordings that could be assuaged by treatment....cause I can't hear any. That will most probably be my treatment limit. Very possibly my ignorance is my bliss. Who knows? I'll have something up soon enough so you can all be the judge. thanks

[DupleMeter]

Originally Posted by kurth

thanks everyone. I gotta basic question. where do you put the sat plugin in the chain ? At the very beginning, or after the compression and eq ? Usually juggling vst's in my chains has very little audible effect, for example. thanks k

I like to put them in this order:

EQ > Saturation > Compression

The reason being that I want to use an EQ to shape the tone to be what i want before I saturate it, and I want to compress after the saturation because the saturation will change the way a compressor reacts because saturation has a compression component to it. So this way the compressor works less & the initial transient shaping happens in the saturation.

That said, I have reversed the EQ & saturation when it worked better that way. But I pretty much never put a saturator after a compressor.

[DupleMeter]

Originally Posted by kurth

Sas....which Lauten do you own ? I'm jealous. So the conventional AGF wisdom is forget a tube mic if you don't have a treated room. I hate treated rooms. They're antithetical to creativity. They remind me of being trapped on a spaceship. So is that true for you ? Thanks for the plugins k

I suspect you’ve never been in a good studio. It’s a freeing experience to not have a room fight you when you play. Never have have I thought to myself “this room sucks all my creativity”. On the other hand i have said “this room sucks! It’s too mushy.”

Sorry, but that’s just not anywhere near true. A properly treated room is the best thing anyone who wants to record could do for themselves. Then, even a mediocre setup, will produce much better recordings.

[kurth]

Originally Posted by DupleMeter

I suspect you’ve never been in a good studio. It’s a freeing experience to not have a room fight you when you play. Never have have I thought to myself “this room sucks all my creativity”. On the other hand i have said “this room sucks! It’s too mushy.”

Sorry, but that’s just not anywhere near true. A properly treated room is the best thing anyone who wants to record could do for themselves. Then, even a mediocre setup, will produce much better recordings.

no never...but I slept last night at a holidayInn....si....but better recordings of what? the requirements of a songwriter are alot different than the requirements of a recording artist. I've seen a thousand pictures, and none of those environments looks conducive to writing songs. I'd guess that's the reason most highly successful songsters build their own studios...cause those commercial establishments are ....lacking at some level. Sorry. But I recall...in those Beatle docs that were circulating last year, that they had no room treatment whatsoever. Hummm. I sure liked Sgt. Pepper.

[kurth]

Originally Posted by DupleMeter

I like to put them in this order:

EQ > Saturation > Compression

The reason being that I want to use an EQ to shape the tone to be what i want before I saturate it, and I want to compress after the saturation because the saturation will change the way a compressor reacts because saturation has a compression component to it. So this way the compressor works less & the initial transient shaping happens in the saturation.

That said, I have reversed the EQ & saturation when it worked better that way. But I pretty much never put a saturator after a compressor.

thanks...useful info

[Sasquatchian]

I don't think this last response was aimed at me but it looks like we're finally going to do Gee's solo record project and will probably do it the way some of our musician friends are doing it here in L.A. Rehearse all the band tracks thoroughly before tracking and then spend two or three days tracking the band in a place like East-West in Hollywood or Sphere in Burbank, both top quality facilities with vintage Neve boards and a great mic collection, and if you go in on an off day or weekend the rates can be surprisingly affordable particularly when you're dealing with top quality musicians who don't have to do a million takes for each track.

Then if there are any overdubs needed we'll pick those up at the home studio, and then probably hire one of my music industry contacts to mix and master while I do the photography and graphic design and take care of the actual CD/LP production.

[kurth]

Originally Posted by Sasquatchian

I don't think this last response was aimed at me but it looks like we're finally going to do Gee's solo record project and will probably do it the way some of our musician friends are doing it here in L.A. Rehearse all the band tracks thoroughly before tracking and then spend two or three days tracking the band in a place like East-West in Hollywood or Sphere in Burbank, both top quality facilities with vintage Neve boards and a great mic collection, and if you go in on an off day or weekend the rates can be surprisingly affordable particularly when you're dealing with top quality musicians who don't have to do a million takes for each track.

Then if there are any overdubs needed we'll pick those up at the home studio, and then probably hire one of my music industry contacts to mix and master while I do the photography and graphic design and take care of the actual CD/LP production.

good luck Sas..... sounds like work.

[Sasquatchian]

Originally Posted by kurth

good luck Sas..... sounds like work.

This is a project that will happen next summer and fall, and while it does sound like work, I am so looking forward to it. This project is all original instrumental music based around accordion, steel drum and vibes that is mostly inspired by the late 1950's and early 1960's music of jazz accordion virtuoso Art Van Damme whose solos sound improvised but were actually written out note for note. Thankfully, it will all happen in stages so I hope I don't get overwhelmed, and being semi-retired, if that's what I am these days, will help a lot. My only requirement from her is to have executive producer title and to be able to play some guitar on at least one track.

[DupleMeter]

Originally Posted by kurth

no never...but I slept last night at a holidayInn....si....but better recordings of what? the requirements of a songwriter are alot different than the requirements of a recording artist. I've seen a thousand pictures, and none of those environments looks conducive to writing songs. I'd guess that's the reason most highly successful songsters build their own studios...cause those commercial establishments are ....lacking at some level. Sorry. But I recall...in those Beatle docs that were circulating last year, that they had no room treatment whatsoever. Hummm. I sure liked Sgt. Pepper.

The Beatles definitely recorded in a properly treated studio. Whether it was EMI, Abby Road or Air. John & Paul also recorded in NYC a lot for solo work.

[Sasquatchian]

Well, Abbey Road was just barely treated and mostly with burlap hanging on the walls and flats. Read Geoff Emerick's book. Very enlightening. Almost as good as Al Schmitt's very good book.

[DupleMeter]

Originally Posted by Sasquatchian

Well, Abbey Road was just barely treated and mostly with burlap hanging on the walls and flats. Read Geoff Emerick's book. Very enlightening. Almost as good as Al Schmitt's very good book.

Keep in mind, treatment doesn't have to mean "thing on the walls". A room's size & layout is super important & often overlooked. So are the building materials.

I've read Geoff's book, and I've been there...and Air. Those rooms sound great.