How do you get the most natural sound from your ES? - Page 2

taylorDude710 · #16 10-10-2011, 01:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jeffg

Right but since the input on the spectrum DI is unbalanced you will still get the gain cut. I suppose it does not matter since the spectrum has an input trim control - you can set that for the input gain level you want.

I am really surprised that you are getting good results with the Aura and ES - I thought the Aura was just for UST type pickups.

jwg

Do Taylor guitars have a balanced output? If that's the case why is my Taylor V-cable only TS? I would have thought Taylor would have made the V-Cable optimal for the guitar?

I'll try running TRS to XLR on the Mackie from the guitar and see if I can hear the diff

mutantrock · #17 10-10-2011, 01:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jeffg

I am really surprised that you are getting good results with the Aura and ES - I thought the Aura was just for UST type pickups.

jwg

There are no rules in the quest for tone! I have heard good results with a LR Baggs M1A soundhole pickup and a Fishman Aura Spectrum.

Steely Glen · #18 10-10-2011, 03:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by taylorDude710

Do Taylor guitars have a balanced output? If that's the case why is my Taylor V-cable only TS? I would have thought Taylor would have made the V-Cable optimal for the guitar?

I'll try running TRS to XLR on the Mackie from the guitar and see if I can hear the diff

Yes, Taylor ES outputs a balanced signal. The Taylor V-cable was first introduced when the ES Go pickup for the Mini came out. Although they mention that one can use it with the ES, it certainly isn't optimal for the ES since it's a 1/4" TS, not a TRS. And I don't think Taylor has anywhere suggested using the V-cable with the ES. Why would you need a volume knob on the cable if you had one on the ES already?

My suggestion for the most natural sounding ES results would be to go simple: run the guitar straight into the mixer. I can't imagine how chorus pedal + reverb pedal + Aura image of an 814ce (with compression) played through a 914ce would be more natural sounding than the guitar itself straight into a mixer.

Perhaps I'm missing something here....

taylorDude710 · #19 10-10-2011, 03:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steely Glen

Yes, Taylor ES outputs a balanced signal. The Taylor V-cable was first introduced when the ES Go pickup for the Mini came out. Although they mention that one can use it with the ES, it certainly isn't optimal for the ES since it's a 1/4" TS, not a TRS. And I don't think Taylor has anywhere suggested using the V-cable with the ES. Why would you need a volume knob on the cable if you had one on the ES already?

My suggestion for the most natural sounding ES results would be to go simple: run the guitar straight into the mixer. I can't imagine how chorus pedal + reverb pedal + Aura image of an 814ce (with compression) played through a 914ce would be more natural sounding than the guitar itself straight into a mixer.

Perhaps I'm missing something here....

I don't think you are missing anything. I've never used a balance cable from my Taylor's so perhaps I just need to try this first and then go from there. I could run my reverb/chorus effects through the mixer FX loop if needed. I might even be able to sell the fishman which would get me some more money back

jeffg · #20 10-10-2011, 03:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by taylorDude710

Do Taylor guitars have a balanced output? If that's the case why is my Taylor V-cable only TS? I would have thought Taylor would have made the V-Cable optimal for the guitar?

I'll try running TRS to XLR on the Mackie from the guitar and see if I can hear the diff

A distinguishing feature of the Taylor ES is that it outputs a balanced signal - so most guys use a TRS to XLR cable and go straight from guitar to mixer. If you run a normal 1/4 inch cable from the guitar to any pedal type preamp or effect - which are all unbalanced - the signal drops down to unbalanced along with a drop in volume/gain.

Something to be aware of when using the ES.

jeff

Colbyjack · #21 10-10-2011, 04:03 PM

As noted, the ES is balanced. In 90% of cases it's best to us a TRX to XLR balanced cable. Otherwise, as noted, you're losing signal... and making it unbalanced.

Audio PROS will tell you balanced is better... because it is.

The main exception is when you plug your Taylor ES guitar into an amp that doesn't "like" a balanced in put; or prefers an unbalanced input.

Go balanced!!

Also, a big plus one for the K4! I too use it, and plug into the balanced input designed for the ES. And I too keep it basically flat.

Now, all this said... there's a whole lot more to the sound chain when you play a church, or somewhere where there's a board and PA that's out of your control. How's the system EQ'd for the room? Is there and EQ that effects everything that comes out of the board?

Plus, whenever I play live, I ask the person on the board to A) check my input gain (after I've set it on my end) and B) set my guitar channel flat. If needed I can adjust the K4.

Oh...yes... no pedals here.

edward993 · #22 10-10-2011, 10:21 PM

FWIW, I've done balanced and unbalanced. Back and forth, A/B-ing between balanced and unbalanced. Apart from the obvious difference in input gain, I find no differance in tone quality whatsoever. This through a few PA systems, straight into the snake, zero effects, and sometimes through a Baggs Venue (though tried it w/o as well). The benefits of a balanced line is clearly signal strength and noise rejection. But , if the cable run is short and the signal is already dead quiet, I don't see the point of going balanced. Unless I'm missing something, neither I nor others have noticed any appreciable difference.

Edward

Colbyjack · #23 10-10-2011, 10:49 PM

Hi Edward,

I think for the sake a "good advice" I tell people that if you an ES Taylor, it's best to stay balanced. It's just a good practice IMO.

A pro (in the true sense) sound guy told me once that going from balanced to unbalanced "... Is like having a Ferrari in the garage, and putting the cheapest, (low quality, lowest octane) gas you can find in it."

pieterh · #24 10-11-2011, 02:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Colbyjack

A pro (in the true sense) sound guy told me once that going from balanced to unbalanced "... Is like having a Ferrari in the garage, and putting the cheapest, (low quality, lowest octane) gas you can find in it."

I love this quote!

For the sake of the debate, even if the level drop is around 6dB (halving the volume in other words) would that not take it to a regular line level? Or have Taylor tweaked the electronics so that the balanced signal is at the optimum level.

taylorDude710 · #25 10-11-2011, 03:54 AM

I'm taking this discussion to another thread. I think it warrant it's own

edward993 · #26 10-11-2011, 07:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Colbyjack

Hi Edward,

I think for the sake a "good advice" I tell people that if you an ES Taylor, it's best to stay balanced. It's just a good practice IMO.

A pro (in the true sense) sound guy told me once that going from balanced to unbalanced "... Is like having a Ferrari in the garage, and putting the cheapest, (low quality, lowest octane) gas you can find in it."

Hey Colby,

Naw, I don't disagree with you ...in the general scheme of things, it is better to utilize the cleanest method available, and clearly balanced line is best. In the general sense. But (also having worked under real pro sound guys who get paid in the professional world to work their magic), I've also learned that when there is no appreciable aurel difference, then going the extra mile to do something for no net return is energy wasted ...nothing effecient or high-performance about wasted effort. Of course, I am not calling using Taylor's balanced op "wasted effort," far be it ...it's great and best to utilize, in the general scheme of things. But if one can get the same final result with simpler (or alternative) means, then that's good too. And if using effects/stompboxes (which I don't with acoustic), or a preamp/eq (I found I do prefer shaping through a Baggs Venue), where going unbalanced does not degrade tone, then there's my clear answer.

BTW, putting race gas or even plain ol' high-octane pump gas into a very nice Accord adds nothing to its performance, except costs you more. The illustration your sound guy makes definitely applies, but only when one is considering the design parameters of a piece of technology and how it is being applied in a specific circumstance: one must always consider the design of "x" when applying it into situation "y" which may make sense, but not in situation "z." No disagreements with your principle of using a balanced line at all; just stating an alternative solution in my experience that may apply to others. And when unbalanced sucks, then the answer is , ahem, clear.

Edward

taylorDude710 · #27 10-13-2011, 06:52 PM

ok, bought a HOSA balanced TRS to XLR and ran some sound tests and here is what I found between using TS/TS (unbalanced) and TRS/XLRm (balanced)

This was using a 914ce into a Mackie passive mixer into JBL G2 EON Speakers.

- Slight increase in gain when using the balanced (no surprise there).
- No real difference in noise using non balanced as opposed to balanced.
- Slight improvement in acoustic sound using the Fishman Aura Spectrum DI as opposed to not using it.

Conclusion. I'm keeping my current setup as is:

914ce -> TS -> Fishman Aura Spectrum DI -> Boss Reverb (FX Loop off fishman) -> XLRf/XLRm -> Mackie ProFX8 -> XLRf/XLRm -> JBL G2 EONs