Keys of F, Bb, Eb, and Ab for a blues player

[Doug Young]

Originally Posted by EoE

Jazz guitar players do not use Capos because we have been fighting against the stigma that guitar players are musically literate. do not know our instruments. we are not musicians or at best second class musician's. last thing you want to do is give any indication that you can not read or play your scales. that you do not know your fret board. to this day using a capo is unthinkable to me.

The funny thing about that, of course, is that the reason all those jazz tunes are in those keys is because the horns are transposing instruments - so while they're looking down on guitarists, bassists and keyboard players for struggling with those keys, they're actually in keys like C, F and G on their instruments! They don't want to do songs in concert C because then they'd have to be playing in Eb, Ab, and Bb :-)

[Trevor B.]

Originally Posted by Doug Young

The funny thing about that, of course, is that the reason all those jazz tunes are in those keys is because the horns are transposing instruments - so while they're looking down on guitarists, bassists and keyboard players for struggling with those keys, they're actually in keys like C, F and G on their instruments! They don't want to do songs in concert C because then they'd have to be playing in Eb, Ab, and Bb :-)

Or to put this point another way….. Isn't it amazing how many people take their own comfort zone and try to turn it into a moral or intellectual high ground???

I'm a classically trained player but often use a capo when it makes life easier. If someone else is unimpressed all I can do is quote the Dude from the Big Lebowski and say, "Bummer, man".

[amyFB]

I prefer not to use a capo because I don't want to give up real estate on the neck.

But, sometimes, it's a convenient way to achieve a particular sound or friendly fingering.

If I'm in a jam, and there's a complex chord progression I'm not picking up quickly I'll capo up to keep on playing.

I like playing chord inversions up and down the neck and the capo is limiting.

It's just another tool in the music box, to my mind.

yours in tune and gadgets

[Toby Walker]

Originally Posted by ljguitar

Hi Fuzzy…

I can play 3 & 4 note inversions and barre chords all day long in flat keys, and it's pretty sterile for me.

When I'm playing blues, folk, any intricate finger style solo work, or just full on big-fat-chord-chunking, it's capo time in flat keys for me with no apology.

I feel no need to exert musical scholarship when what I want to play are blues chords and runs utilizing the open strings for bass notes to build parts over.

I have the knowledge, and the degree, and the techniques worked into my hands/brain - all at my disposal for playing in 'flat' keys.

I still go with capos in flat keys and not always in the easiest configuration. For key of E♭ I'll capo 1st fret and play in Dropped D (to reaffirm the E♭bass note), 3rd fret and play in C, or 6th fret in key of A relative to the capo. It really depends on the style of the music and what I'm expected to play.

And playing in key of B♭I may capo 3rd fret and play in G, or 1st fret in key of A in relation to the capo.

Just because I can play things more than one way (barres, inversions or capoed) doesn't determine which is best.

Being in a modern, guitar driven stream of musical performance these days, and not playing in situations that are keyboard driven, I have little use for flat keys, and absolutely zero allegiance to the original key songs are written in. In fact, I'd disagree with, and reject the theory that pieces sound best in the key they were written in.

I absolutely could not have put this any better Larry. I agree with you 100%.

[mr. beaumont]

The only reason I don't use a capo is the same as Amy's giving up space.

Open string licks aren't a big part of what i do, so it's not really necessary. For others it's a great tool.

But if you genuinely WANT to learn the whole neck, do it. All it can do is expand possibilities.

[EoE]

Yep lots of horn players will cry about natural keys . but in all fairness it is very easy for the guitar to transpose that is a place the instrument shines and it is not easy for a horn to transpose.. but the good horn players can transpose easy. I understand the capo is as old as the guitar itself almost. a legitimate part of flamenco music and those cats can shred. does not change we had to fight the stigma that guitar players are musically illiterate. and the stigma still exists this instrument has more musically illiterate players than almost any other instrument. But I am guilty of this also I see someone with a capo I immediately dismiss him as a guitar player and think he can only play in one key and uses his guitar as back up for his vocals . and it is because of jamming with so many capo players who were so limited in what they could do.

[Trevor B.]

Then there's the issue of trying to at least approximate the tonalities of, let's say, a late Renaissance lute. Pieces fingered in what we would think of as D (diatonic tonality was not yet codified) is rendered now in F for piano or modern ensembles. The best solution on guitar is to capo the 3rd fret.

[Cone Head]

Originally Posted by Fuzzy125

Been playing the blues for a while now, and have yet to use a barred Bb7 in any song. Am I better off sticking to C, G, D, A, E?

Rev Gary Davis played a number of songs out of the key of F, without a capo.

www.youtube.com/watch?v=TpPs6xUbHZo
www.youtube.com/watch?v=zVML_JgdGPQ

I just learned a couple of new songs in which are played out of F position, Blind Blake's "Doing A Stretch" and "Turtle Dove Blues" by Peg Leg Howell.

www.youtube.com/watch?v=2GrXMmdU7vg
www.youtube.com/watch?v=kLjSXpgBFF0

[Trevor B.]

Originally Posted by Cone Head

Rev Gary Davis played a number of songs out of the key of F, without a capo.

www.youtube.com/watch?v=TpPs6xUbHZo
www.youtube.com/watch?v=zVML_JgdGPQ

I just learned a couple of new songs in which are played out of F position, Blind Blake's "Doing A Stretch" and "Turtle Dove Blues" by Peg Leg Howell.

www.youtube.com/watch?v=2GrXMmdU7vg
www.youtube.com/watch?v=kLjSXpgBFF0

I had to play a piece that modulated in the last chorus from C to Db for a Xmas concert a few weeks back. All six string barres with lots of inside voice movement. So nothing wrong with playing in F, Bb, Eb, and Ab along with their relative minors sans a capo. I believe every guitarist should practice doing it, but……there ares many instances when the capo is a fantastically convenient tool.

[Fuzzy125]

Just want to thank everyone for their time and comments. Didn't expect my question to lead to a discussion on the use of capos. But wow, very enlightening!

And in response to Amy FB's recommendation on three- and four-string movable chords, yes, I'm familar with them. Learning them was eye opening. A year or two ago, I didn't understand why some of you said playing the guitar is about learning and employing "shapes." Now I'm nodding my head furiously.

[JonPR]

Originally Posted by Doug Young

The funny thing about that, of course, is that the reason all those jazz tunes are in those keys is because the horns are transposing instruments - so while they're looking down on guitarists, bassists and keyboard players for struggling with those keys, they're actually in keys like C, F and G on their instruments! They don't want to do songs in concert C because then they'd have to be playing in Eb, Ab, and Bb :-)

No, not exactly...
Your point is correct, of course - they like their easy keys same as we like ours. And they are even more bound to their home keys, because the fret patterns on guitar can easily be adapted to awkward keys by shifting up or down, keeping the same fingerings (provided you're OK with barre chords, of course, which is the only thing making flat keys tricky on guitar).

But if a (say) trumpet player had to play in concert C, he'd be playing in his/her key of D.
In my experience, horn players don't usually mind the concert keys of C, G or even D, especially if playing blues or blues-influenced music, because that takes the scales back in a flat direction anyway (naturalising many of the sharps). Where they start getting twitchy is in the keys of A and E - which we love, of course. For an alto or baritone sax player (in Eb), the key of A major is their F# major - and concert E is C# major! Aaargh! (E is F# major for trumpet, tenor sax or clarinet.)
And as I said - they can't just stick a capo on, or move a fingering pattern... Their tough keys are much tougher than our tough keys. (Although more experience makes it easier for them, as it does for us.)

[Doug Young]

Yes, of course, Jon. I oversimplified to make the basic point. There are all kinds of different transposing instruments, which sort of guarantees in a typical jazz band or symphony that someone will land in a "hard" key. Some instruments, like flute, are even "C" instruments, so they are in the same boat as guitar, piano, etc.

[Shimmy]

As a string player, it gets interesting playing with a guitarist using a capo or even a guitar tuned a step down. D major suddenly becomes Db major!!... so no open strings allowed!lol In this key, the cello for instance, doesn't seem to resonate in that lovely way it does if you're playing in D and the fingerings can get tricky at times.

And don't even get me started on the fact that a B flat and an A sharp are not exactly in the same place either!