Taylor ES2 - Clink/Squeak on D and G string

[SpruceTop]

Originally Posted by Flipguitar_pro

Yes... and that is exactly why I ordered my latest Taylor with no electronics. The ES2 (played through 4 different amps) sounds like I am using a jagged rock as a pick.

I have a Bose L1 Compact and 9 out of 10 of my guitars with electronics of any kind, from any manufacture, sound amazing. My 1 guitar that sounds awful through it is my 614ce with ES2. Even playing finger style it sounds terrible.

Here is a video I did when I first got the guitar. Should be pretty obvious.

https://www.facebook.com/10001018855...type=2&theater

I have a 712ce-N and it sounds incredible, and I also have a DN7 with a Matrix Infinity that sounds 10 times better than my 614ce.

Nice tune and performance and your 614ce sounds pretty good to me especially since you're in a dropped tuning. Is this a direct recording from guitar through an interface with some reverb added or is it a mic'ed amp? I hear some of that tinniness but again, you're in a lowered tuning. The thing I like about the ES2 is that it almost sounds mic'ed without being so.

[SpruceTop]

Originally Posted by mtm

I'm wondering why you, SpruceTop, are tending more towards a problem at the saddle. I think you could be right that the tone is always there (and just overly amplified when plugged in). Since the tone goes away when fretting, wouldn't be the nut the first thing to look at? Since fretting more or less removes the nut from the equation?

You're very observant and it could be a nut problem. I'm thinking it's more at the saddle because of the sharp contact edge with the string and then the gentler slope of the saddle behind the edge where the G and D strings follow the curve of the saddle until leaving it to go into the bridge-pin hole. I'd like to buy an extra saddle from Taylor for one of my guitars and try filing away some of that gentle slope so there's less string contact with the rear of the saddle to hear if that remedies the tinniness. That could be one solution.

I wonder if loosening the G/D pickup-sensor cam enough to get a small, thin piece of tissue paper between the sensor and the rear of the saddle might also reduce this tinniness or at least be an experiment to see what it would do for the tone? It would likely also change the timbre of the tone compared to the other strings but it might be interesting to hear what it would do to reduce the tinniness of those strings.

I wonder if anyone has contacted Taylor on this fairly common G and D string tinny-sounding effect or if there's some discussion of it on some other guitar-related forum? I'll have to do a search.

[martingitdave]

Flip guitar, nice piece. I do hear the artifacts in the pickup you're talking about. It is somewhat metallic in sound. Sort of like a bad aftertaste with some coffee. I suspect that playing style might have some bearing on the success of the ES2. I also suspect that the next round of ES system will have an improved preamp to mitigate some of that. I think Taylor will stick with this pickup design. They have too much invested. FWIW, I really love my ES2 systems.

I will offer a thought I had when listening to the video the OP posted. My first reaction was that the offending noise was plectrum noise. But, now I wonder if the interaction of the pick with the Maicarta saddle is the issue? When I was performing with my 816ce (ES2), I was using a bone saddle. My amplified tone with that guitar was great. That metallic sound makes me think of the sound you get when raking the strings over the saddle with your pick. Maybe the Micarta saddle bearing surface is too soft and the strings are popping on and off? Does any of this make sense? I hesitated saying it because it sounds crazy.

Because it is faint acoustically, and loud amplified, it makes me think it is a saddle issue being amplified by ES2. The piezo is dumb, and shouldn't color the sound unless is gets overloaded and starts quaking. That was the point of es2. Put the piezo where it can get the most movement without the harsh downward pressure of the saddle causing overload when played hard.

Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk

[SpruceTop]

I left a message at the Unofficial Taylor Guitar Forum with the title:

ES2: Has A Remedy Been Found To Eliminate Trebly Pinging On G and D Strings?

For viewing any activity, it's at this address: http://www.unofficialtaylorguitarfor...p?topic=7279.0

[Bear Davis]

Spruce-
That was my cell phone recording my Bose L1 compact. The sounds get worse on this guitar when in standard tuning but I have solved the issue as of 2 hours ago. I sold it... Yep that is pretty much the only solution imho. I have also placed an order for a 2016 914c Brazilian with no electronics from an AGF sponsor.

Dave-
I'm glad you got one that works for you! I also think that my guitar being maple didn't help things either.

Here is the same crappy cell phone recording the Bose with my Takamine. Yes it's a crossover but wow what a difference.

https://www.facebook.com/10001018855...type=2&theater

I should record my DN7 with the Matrix infinity at some point. No metallic garbage overtones.

[SpruceTop]

Originally Posted by Flipguitar_pro

Spruce-
That was my cell phone recording my Bose L1 compact. The sounds get worse on this guitar when in standard tuning but I have solved the issue as of 2 hours ago. I sold it... Yep that is pretty much the only solution imho. I have also placed an order for a 2016 914c Brazilian with no electronics from an AGF sponsor.

Dave-
I'm glad you got one that works for you! I also think that my guitar being maple didn't help things either.

Here is the same crappy cell phone recording the Bose with my Takamine. Yes it's a crossover but wow what a difference.

https://www.facebook.com/10001018855...type=2&theater

I should record my DN7 with the Matrix infinity at some point. No metallic garbage overtones.

Thanks for the follow-up. I'm sorry to hear you felt you had to sell your 614ce. Congratulations on your ordered 914c Brazilian--It'll be a stunner tone- and looks-wise for sure!

[Cochese]

Kind of an extreme solution but if you didn't lose money selling it...

I thought your recording sounded great through my studio monitors. The conclusion I've come to with my ES2 guitar is that Taylor "hears" things differently than me. They seem to dial in some extra high end that might be there when using a condenser mic in the studio which is kind of a hyped high end . There is also something weird in the midrange and maybe it varies from guitar to guitar. Taylor recommended adjusting the pickup lower in the slot to reduce those artifacts but I still couldn't make it happen live. My guitar actually sounded great recorded though.

I did think about selling it but I really like the sound of the Fishman Rare Earth Blend so I ordered the TruPlug end pin for the Taylor ES and disconnected the wire from the end pin to the preamp and just left the preamp in the guitar rather than plugging it with the plugs provided by TruPlug. I installed the REB, the TruPlug endpin and now the guitar works fine for me and if I do decided to sell it I can easily reinstall the ES2.

Here's a recording of my 522 with the ES2 system. This is a direct to Cubase recording. Just the guitar to line in.



Funny thing I read that Jason Mraz (Taylor Endorser) runs Fishman electronics in his guitars.

[Bear Davis]

Originally Posted by Cochese

Kind of an extreme solution but if you didn't lose money selling it...

Funny thing I read that Jason Mraz (Taylor Endorser) runs Fishman electronics in his guitars.

I would have to disagree. Selling an acoustic electric guitar that you hate the sound of plugged in is a less extreme solution vs disconnecting the electronics and using something else. Imho of course

[SpruceTop]

Originally Posted by Cochese

Kind of an extreme solution but if you didn't lose money selling it...

I thought your recording sounded great through my studio monitors. The conclusion I've come to with my ES2 guitar is that Taylor "hears" things differently than me. They seem to dial in some extra high end that might be there when using a condenser mic in the studio which is kind of a hyped high end . There is also something weird in the midrange and maybe it varies from guitar to guitar. Taylor recommended adjusting the pickup lower in the slot to reduce those artifacts but I still couldn't make it happen live. My guitar actually sounded great recorded though.

I did think about selling it but I really like the sound of the Fishman Rare Earth Blend so I ordered the TruPlug end pin for the Taylor ES and disconnected the wire from the end pin to the preamp and just left the preamp in the guitar rather than plugging it with the plugs provided by TruPlug. I installed the REB, the TruPlug endpin and now the guitar works fine for me and if I do decided to sell it I can easily reinstall the ES2.

Here's a recording of my 522 with the ES2 system. This is a direct to Cubase recording. Just the guitar to line in.



Funny thing I read that Jason Mraz (Taylor Endorser) runs Fishman electronics in his guitars.

Considering that's a direct recording, it sounds pretty good! Now through an amp or PA, with some air between the speakers and the listeners, it would sound even better.

[Cochese]

Originally Posted by Flipguitar_pro

I would have to disagree. Selling an acoustic electric guitar that you hate the sound of plugged in is a less extreme solution vs disconnecting the electronics and using something else. Imho of course

Unsnapping a molex connector is hardly major surgery. To me it's an "acoustic" guitar first and guitar electronics change over the years. My original 1992 Taylor was made with a Fishman UST. At the time Taylor wouldn't put preamps and barn doors on their acoustics. That guitar (which Taylor refretted for me last year) has had 3 different pickup's in it over the years... It's always been my go to guitar for recording but electronics change and state of the art 24 years ago is probably not the same today. I guess if you only ever play electric.

To me maybe Lyle Lovett has the right idea. He only uses a Sunrise so he can take it out when not performing.

[Bear Davis]

Originally Posted by Cochese

To me it's an "acoustic" guitar first and guitar electronics change over the years.

Indeed they are, which was one of the reasons I ordered my next taylor without electronics in addition to having bad luck with ES2.

One thing that Taylor is REALLY good at is adding bells/whistles/upgrades to make people want their newest products. I would venture to say they are probably the gold standard for marketing. A lot of people automatically value guitars with ES2 higher than those with ES1 because it's newer.

At the same time when I saw the redesign of the 900 series I automatically wanted one WAY more than a previous year because of all the new bells/whistles/upgrades. Oh... and that sexy arm bevel! That definitely didn't help my GAS.

[Cochese]

The drag about their pickup designs is that unlike a simple UST they are not easy to swap out. You "can" add something like a K&K, or in my case the REB easily. You could also add a UST as well but I'm not sure how you would take out the pickup that is in there.

I can't totally fault their pickup system as in your example and mine I thought they record well. My frustration for live is that generally speaking I can't set up my small PA system in a way to maximize the sound so I opt for a system that works in that particular situation.

My older Taylor with the K&K sounds really good but that usually won't work well in most of my local live settings. It was the same when I had the IBeam in that guitar. Having said that when I play in more "pro" situations like musical theater gigs or Radio City Musical Hall the guitar is so isolated from the system (we monitor with Avioms and phones) that the pickup system is never an issue.

I think part of the frustration with "plugged in" tone is how good the system is, your proximity to it and also are you "acoustically" still hearing your instrument along with the amplified sound. That will skew your impression of the sound and it will also change the tone as well.

I did an experiment where I played my acoustic through my system live and recorded it with a looper. I also tried recording the guitar with the looper with the system off and then played it back and the tone had changed. The guitar will "hear" itself through the system and that gets into the sound. Using a soundhole plug will usually cure this somewhat.

[SpruceTop]

For my playing style, which uses a flatpick most of the time and also fingerpicking, I've come to the conclusion that the there's nothing really wrong about the Taylor ES2; if anything, it's more an issue of the shaping of the Micarta bridge-saddle and maybe the material itself that's may need attention. As I may have mentioned, the pinging overtones on the G and D strings can be heard when the guitar is played acoustically and doesn't occur on all my Taylors but only on my 2014 814ce ES2, and a little bit on the G-string of my newly-arrived 2016 Taylor 322ce. I've checked the 814ce for any loose tuner nuts and wires, etc., and I'll experiment with different strings. Although they're recommended for the new Performance Bracing, I'm not really sold on the Elixir HD Lights. Taylor also puts these strings on the new 322ce, which doesn't have Performance Bracing, and which I'm going to change for regular Elixir Phosphor Bronze Light-gage strings which will help make it even easier to play. I've yet to try regular Elixir Phosphor Bronze Light-gage strings on the 814ce but will.

[SpruceTop]

Cool, my Taylor 814ce sounds pretty much pingless today which is funny because I keep my guitars in a climate-controlled environment. I hadn't played it in about two weeks and maybe the strings are getting old? All's well that ends well, I suppose.

[SpruceTop]

I want to thank everyone for their suggestions on the possible causes and solutions for my G- and/or D-string pinging problem. I've found, however, that since I now play sitting down most of the time, my G- and/or D-string pinging is related mostly to my posture and how it affects the angle at which my flatpick hits the strings. When sitting, my guitars tend to tilt back somewhat towards my upper chest and this presents my flatpick with an angle across the strings that causes the G- and/or D-string, especially, to vibrate in what I'm assuming are arcs that cause this pinging. The pinging goes away when I sit up straight and the flatpick engages the strings at a more perpendicular angle. I've found this pinging also occurs on other brands of guitars, with or without pickup/preamp systems, when I'm sitting in a way that tilts the guitars toward my upper chest.

Again, let me thank everyone for their suggestions on possible causes of the pinging and I hope my playing-posture finding can help some of you with this problem.