Sipo vs Mahogany

[DrewStrummer]

Switching from Genuine Hog to SIPO is a huge, huge change for Martin, it's not like "select wood"... The crazy thing is they started using SIPO in 2015, and here we are (some of us) just realizing its not the Mahogany they've been using for 30 years... but because they call it Mahogany, we have to look at our guitars and say oh wait... this 00-17 I bought 2 years ago, isn't what I thought it was. But why should us consumers care, we're dropping 2-3 k on these guitars.

Originally Posted by DrewStrummer

Switching from Genuine Hog to SIPO is a huge, huge change for Martin, it's not like "select wood"... The crazy thing is they started using SIPO in 2015, and here we are (some of us) just realizing its not the Mahogany they've been using for 30 years... but because they call it Mahogany, we have to look at our guitars and say oh wait... this 00-17 I bought 2 years ago, isn't what I thought it was. But why should us consumers care, we're dropping 2-3 k on these guitars.

It's exactly like Select Hardwood for necks, and it's exactly like all of the other examples I've given starting a hundred years ago...a full century of using various species of spruce, rosewood, and mahogany without any notification or clarification in the published material. The difference today is the internet.

If Martin wanted this to be a big secret they wouldn't tell people like me, and welcome me to share the information on forums. And I'm not the only person. They'll explain it all to any group of random folks that take the factory tour.

And they've been using sipo longer further back than 2015. It started in regular production on the CEO-7 in November 2014, and was used on various other guitars back at least as far as 2013.

[stringjunky]

Originally Posted by Todd Yates

It's exactly like Select Hardwood for necks, and it's exactly like all of the other examples I've given starting a hundred years ago...a full century of using various species of spruce, rosewood, and mahogany without any notification or clarification in the published material. The difference today is the internet.

If Martin wanted this to be a big secret they wouldn't tell people like me, and welcome me to share the information on forums. And I'm not the only person. They'll explain it all to any group of random folks that take the factory tour.

And they've been using sipo longer further back than 2015. It started in regular production on the CEO-7 in November 2014, and was used on various other guitars back at least as far as 2013.

Martin could just as easily keep schtum about it but they don't. They are quite open, I think, once you understand their terminology.

Originally Posted by DrewStrummer

because they call it Mahogany, we have to look at our guitars and say oh wait... this 00-17 I bought 2 years ago, isn't what I thought it was. But why should us consumers care, we're dropping 2-3 k on these guitars.

If you liked it enough to spend 2 - 3 K on it, then sipo must sound pretty darn good!

In these days of diminishing and/or inconsistent supplies of tonewood, I commend Martin for finding such a fantastic substitute. Sure, they should probably just go ahead and call it sipo, but given the resistance that members of this forum have put up, it's hard to blame them for not doing so.

"Sometimes called Sipo Mahogany, or simply Sipo, Utile is in the Meliaceae family, and is somewhat related to the true mahoganies found in the Swietenia genus."

[Swamp Yankee]

Originally Posted by stringjunky2

Martin could just as easily keep schtum about it but they don't. They are quite open, I think, once you understand their terminology.

I read an article recently in which Bob Taylor was commenting on the negative feedback they got (I think it was in the late 90s) when they referred to sapele as "sapele mahogany" in their product descriptions.

The complaints pointed out that sapele was not a true mahogany and therefore Taylor was misleading buyers with their terminology.

Taylor's response, according to the article, was to refer to it as "sapele" from then on.

I think the definition of what it means to be "open" can vary a great deal from person to person. Much the same as the definition of what it means to be "mahogany" can vary a great deal from maker to maker.

[mercy]

If a wood is not mahogany it should be stated for what it is not call it mahogany. There is a word maybe a couple for that kind of advertising. It has nothing to do with what it sounds like. Perhaps the replacement sounds the same or better. Manufacturers have a responsibility to be transparent.

[Ed-in-Ohio]

Originally Posted by mercy

If a wood is not mahogany it should be stated for what it is not call it mahogany. There is a word maybe a couple for that kind of advertising. It has nothing to do with what it sounds like. Perhaps the replacement sounds the same or better. Manufacturers have a responsibility to be transparent.

I agree with this. Also, it should be pointed out that Martin does not even list Sipo on their tonewoods page.

It is very reasonable to assume that someone interested in knowing what wood is used on the back and sides of a new 15 series guitar, and researches that on the Martin website, would assume it was made of actual Mahogany since:

• That's what's on the spec sheet, and
• The guitar's model actually has an M in the name to designate Mahogany!

I love Martin as a company, and I love their guitars and tradition, but I am frankly stunned by those who defend them on this.

[Mr Fingers]

Martin rightly identifies the woods they use. They hardly deserve a prize for that. Wouldn't you? Wouldn't you expect everyone to be honest? What disappoints me is that they do not inform purchasers of an individual instrument what species was used in that guitar. Of course they do not have to, and of course they are welcome to take the position that the woods are interchangeable. And of course buyers can walk away or proceed to purchase under those conditions. Personally, I buy the guitars I get to try out, and tone and playability rule for me, so whatever wood there may be will speak for itself. But plenty of buyers do care about what materials they're buying, and while I know it serves Martin's purposes to withhold that info, it's not very nice. They certainly make a super big public issue of wood selection on their expensive models.

Originally Posted by mercy

If a wood is not mahogany it should be stated for what it is not call it mahogany. There is a word maybe a couple for that kind of advertising. It has nothing to do with what it sounds like. Perhaps the replacement sounds the same or better. Manufacturers have a responsibility to be transparent.

I'd rather Martin and others just call it sipo, but as long as sipo is referred to fairly commonly as "sipo mahogany" and is considered by many to be in the mahogany family, the transparency responsibility is probably met, however minimally. Since it doesn't seem to be affecting sales, I wouldn't count on anything changing anytime soon.

[Swamp Yankee]

nevermind

[mercy]

Swietenia macrophylla is mahogany. Entandrophragma utile is Sipo. Do you see anything similar? No, Sipo is not any kind of mahogany. It may look like it, sound like it but it is not it. If you know a girl named Mary and there is another girl named Josie that looks like her they are not the same or even in the same family.
My thought is not whether it should be used or what it sounds like, this thread seems to be a lot more about Martin. Its a wonderful company that makes wonderful guitars but has always been more about business than anything. No doubt they would loose sales calling something what it is rather than a traditional name.
Pleas dont call me Bill

[DrewStrummer]

So from reading here and a few other forums and facebook the general concession is:

.... every MARTIN guitar listed as "Mahogany" back and side, made from late 2014 and early 2015 are made from SIPO, not only the CEO 7's and 15s.

Unless it says "Genuine Mahogany" that is. Mahogany now and going forward is SIPO, and "Genuine Mahogany" will ONLY be used for special runs and customs.

Originally Posted by DrewStrummer

So from reading here and a few other forums and facebook the general concession is:

.... every MARTIN guitar listed as "Mahogany" back and side, made from late 2014 and early 2015 are made from SIPO, not only the CEO 7's and 15s.

Unless it says "Genuine Mahogany" that is. Mahogany now and going forward is SIPO, and "Genuine Mahogany" will ONLY be used for special runs and customs.

That is not correct. If the specs say "Mahogany" it could be Sipo, or Sapele, or Honduran mahogany. The CEO-7 has been exclusively Sipo since November 2014, but that is one model, not a general rule.

FWIW, the Wood Database site lists these three common names for Entandrophragma utile - Utile, Sipo, Sipo Mahogany. It's not like Martin just made up the mahogany connection.

[TokyoNeko]

I'm not going to be too harsh on Martin here. At least there is a way to distinguish "Genuine Mahogany" from "Mahogany."

It appears that Guild is doing something similar but a bit differently... The MIC 120 series guitars are made of "African Mahogany," whereas the California-made 20 series guitars are made of "Mahogany."

[stringjunky]

Originally Posted by TokyoNeko

I'm not going to be too harsh on Martin here. At least there is a way to distinguish "Genuine Mahogany" from "Mahogany."

It appears that Guild is doing something similar but a bit differently... The MIC 120 series guitars are made of "African Mahogany," whereas the California-made 20 series guitars are made of "Mahogany."

African is probably Sapele.