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Old 04-15-2015, 01:43 PM
buzzardwhiskey buzzardwhiskey is offline
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Default Gonna have to create a scratch track

I'm having fun with my new Apogee One audio interface to my iPad... and I'm experiencing unexpected frustrations... I want to build layers of a song by recording some guitar to a click track, then listening to that while recording drums into another track, and then adding vocals... and on and on...

My problem is that I'm having difficulty with the timing of the chord changes WITHOUT ACTUALLY SINGING ALONG!

I'm going to have to create a throwaway track with both vocals and guitar so that I get the timing down. Then I'll listen to that while recording the "Real" guitar track.
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Old 04-15-2015, 01:54 PM
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Old 04-15-2015, 03:20 PM
buzzardwhiskey buzzardwhiskey is offline
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The Apogee One has one XLR and one 1/4" input. My plan is to use the 1/4" input to record the most "basic" of chordal-change information (maybe just one note) while I sing just enough to help me be "predictive" when I record the "keeper".

On a related topic, I'm loving how well the Lyric pickup records my CEO7. Wow. The combination of Lyric and external condenser mic about a foot from the 12th fret is amazing. I'm going to try moving the mic a little further away to get a slightly larger sense of space.
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Old 04-16-2015, 07:51 AM
MikeBmusic MikeBmusic is offline
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Yes, unless you have the song well 'down', the easiest way to do it is to lay a scratch track (guitar + vocal) over a click track first. I often find that I need to change the temp0 of the song at certain times (like the chorus should be 2bpm faster, or the bridge should slow down 5bpm) so will then adjust the click track (I actually use a repeating drum loop), then re-record the scratch track. Once the basic timing is set, it's a much quicker process to put the actual usable tracks down.
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Old 04-17-2015, 10:02 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MikeBmusic View Post
Yes, unless you have the song well 'down', the easiest way to do it is to lay a scratch track (guitar + vocal) over a click track first. I often find that I need to change the temp of the song at certain times (like the chorus should be 2bpm faster, or the bridge should slow down 5bpm) so will then adjust hte click track (I actually use a repeating drum loop), then re-record the scratch track. Once the basic timing is set, it's a much quicker process to put the actual usable tracks down.
I've always found that I can obtain a much more natural scratch track by not using a click or metronome. Small deviations in timing contribute to a natural flow and feel IMHO. Think of it as performing live; you wouldn't try to do that with a click; music shouldn't be compartmentalized and rigid in structure.
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Old 04-17-2015, 10:31 AM
buzzardwhiskey buzzardwhiskey is offline
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Originally Posted by Rudy4 View Post
I've always found that I can obtain a much more natural scratch track by not using a click or metronome. Small deviations in timing contribute to a natural flow and feel IMHO. Think of it as performing live; you wouldn't try to do that with a click; music shouldn't be compartmentalized and rigid in structure.
I'm beginning to come 'round (again) to this as well.
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Old 04-17-2015, 10:41 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by buzzardwhiskey View Post
My problem is that I'm having difficulty with the timing of the chord changes WITHOUT ACTUALLY SINGING ALONG!
I guess you are like James Taylor. Engineer Val Garay who did his albums after his short stint at Apple said James found it hard to perform the two separately. It used to vex Val. Oh well...

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Old 04-17-2015, 12:41 PM
MikeBmusic MikeBmusic is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rudy4 View Post
I've always found that I can obtain a much more natural scratch track by not using a click or metronome. Small deviations in timing contribute to a natural flow and feel IMHO. Think of it as performing live; you wouldn't try to do that with a click; music shouldn't be compartmentalized and rigid in structure.
If you can keep an even tempo throughout the song, more power to you! Most of my songs end up needing a drum track so the click track is necessary.
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Old 04-17-2015, 12:50 PM
billgennaro billgennaro is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by buzzardwhiskey View Post
I'm having fun with my new Apogee One audio interface to my iPad... and I'm experiencing unexpected frustrations... I want to build layers of a song by recording some guitar to a click track, then listening to that while recording drums into another track, and then adding vocals... and on and on...

My problem is that I'm having difficulty with the timing of the chord changes WITHOUT ACTUALLY SINGING ALONG!

I'm going to have to create a throwaway track with both vocals and guitar so that I get the timing down. Then I'll listen to that while recording the "Real" guitar track.
I do that sometimes. You gotta do what you gotta do to make the song feel natural!
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Old 04-17-2015, 05:48 PM
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If you don't want to use a click track, just record your voice while you play & sing the tune. Make certain to record a count off before you start the performance.
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Old 04-18-2015, 09:10 PM
buzzardwhiskey buzzardwhiskey is offline
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Originally Posted by Bob Womack View Post
I guess you are like James Taylor. Engineer Val Garay who did his albums after his short stint at Apple said James found it hard to perform the two separately. It used to vex Val. Oh well...

Bob
Point of pride. Probably the only thing Mr Taylor and I have in common (besides enjoying his music).
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Old 04-21-2015, 12:22 PM
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Hi bw…

Yup - when I operated a small acoustic studio there were players who could play and sing separately, and surprisingly a lot who could not.

I cannot. Well I can, but when I record vocals and guitar tracks separately on my own arrangements, I play and sing differently than when I perform them at the same time.

Scratch tracks are a good answer over click tracks on many levels. I know there are musicians who prefer click, and can provide it if they do
(it's built into the software these days).

I found more players who would perform more organically when they recorded a scratch track. And their peripheral musicians tended to interact
with those scratch tracks well too.




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Old 04-22-2015, 07:40 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rudy4 View Post
I've always found that I can obtain a much more natural scratch track by not using a click or metronome. Small deviations in timing contribute to a natural flow and feel IMHO. Think of it as performing live; you wouldn't try to do that with a click; music shouldn't be compartmentalized and rigid in structure.
Interesting and certainly everybody is different. But honestly I think there are some myths that are common about what a click represents and doesn't

And of course exactly what the final product is going to be. Makes a fair amount of difference as to the actual usefulness of a click. For example for a simple single solo guitar part obviously or if one is going to play and sing at the same time then a click is arguably unnecessary and may well be a distraction. Where as if adding more parts (dubbing) is going to used, then having a click can be much more useful.

Couple of thoughts :
First: I do think it is the norm for people to be uncomfortable with the idea of a click to start with, given that many of us probably start and do most of our playing without ever even having used a metronome.
But in fact playing to click is exactly the same as playing to a metronome which interestingly used be the way formal music instruction was usually taught.

Also a click is just another tool it has no inherent plus or minus, it is completely the skill and preference of the craftsman that makes it useful or not

Second: It has been my experience neither a click track or metronome actually means that perfect timing will be kept to the point of actually producing a robotic type sound.

I think what is actually at play is the fact that when first trying to play to a click it usually is distracting and can often lead to the an unnatural feel the music played. Which in reality has nothing to do with it being anywhere close to sample accurate or robotically unnatural.

I have done both, used a scratch vocal guitar track as start point (with and without click). Or just a click and guitar rhythm part, with additional parts dubbed in later.
Depending on what the actual project is either one can be desirable.
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