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  #31  
Old 01-14-2018, 10:15 AM
imwjl imwjl is offline
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I think of the builder for a few reasons. My area has stores stocked with high end instruments. I've been able to try a lot including Dave of Dave's handing me one of his vintage Martins to play.

Why the builder? My Santa Cruz with just EIR and Sitka top is an exceptionally fine sounding instrument but also has what's very hard to describe - sort of reserve power or super responsive. Honestly, few of so many guitars I've tried have that.

About a month after I had the guitar Richard Hoover answered when I called about an accessory and setup. I'm not sure if it was marketing hype but he claimed to have remembered the guitar and said it was one they really enjoyed. He claimed while common woods, the guitar was made with a stash of very old spruce and really nice EIR and that a whole lot of the final result was how it all came together and someone I think he said was Joe who did the top.

My area has a store specializing in a lot of very small and newer builders. All the stuff is beautiful but it seems like only half that guy's merchandise has what nearly all of the Collings, Goodall, H&D and Santa Cruz dealer stock does.

The very well stocked Martin dealers like that specialty shop have non-standard woods but a whole lot of the guitars just don't have that magic. I don't buy the defense that it's because the Martin or some new custom builder used Adirondack because the Santa Cruz and Collings with same wood almost always have some of that extra response or power.
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  #32  
Old 01-14-2018, 01:06 PM
Jeff Scott Jeff Scott is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by L20A View Post
What a guitar sounds like is very subjective.
No, that would be objective. How we each perceive that sound is what is subjective, not to mention how we each play the instrument which also has a bearing on the sound.
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  #33  
Old 01-14-2018, 11:26 PM
gitarro gitarro is offline
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As a mere player and collector, i suspect using brazilian rosewood in a guitar is like using Valhorna chocolate to make a chocolate cake. You could use cheaper chocolate and if you were a better baker you could make it taste just as good. But a better baker loves to use the best ingredients and using the best chocolate can elevate the resulting cake to higher heights of culinary excellence.

Hsving said that i haven't tried to make a cake for almost 30 years so my analogy may not be accurate at all LOL
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  #34  
Old 01-15-2018, 12:07 AM
zeebow zeebow is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jabberwocky View Post
Because we were taught that BRW was the Holy Grail from the day we didn't know any better and first stepped into a guitar shop and learnt about it from...a guitar elder! These biases are passed on from one generation to another. Oft repeated, it becomes accepted as the truth. BRW is the Holy Grail because "everyone" who knows more than I do says so. Any newbie to this forum soon learns the same thing.

Hifi speakers, flatscreen TV salesmen know this: goose up the treble, goose up the bass, set the TV on dayglo VIVID. They catch the ears and capture the eyes. Loud and dayglo sells. In the less salubrious parts of town, painted ladies practise the same tactics: show legs and cleavage and lots of make-up. OK, I am no saint and go to parts of town mamma always told me I should not ever go as a child.

EIR is demure, conspicuously inconspicuous in a way that BRW is not. We are drawn to BRW immediately. Koa for that matter, too. But as any man who has made the mistake of marrying the woman who wears a lot of make-up knows, there may not be much there there.

The endangerment to Brazilian RW trees, the high cost demanded of BRW makes its distinct tonal colouration an unworthwhile chase. It is not necessarily a better tonewood. It is just rings differently. We are conditioned to hear this BRW ring as tonally superior and desirable.

Give an EIR guitar a deeper listen and hear what it can do for your music, for your songs. Don't live by the dogma of other guitar players.

Trouble with EIR is that it is just too common, it is just too good. It is too affordable and we like to get what is above our pay grade. It is like D'addario strings, so good that it becomes common.

I heard Jason Vieaux recently. At the end of the piece, Jason revealed that he was playing his new EIR Gernot Wagner, not his BRW Gernot Wagner. Jason sounds like Jason. His music did not suffer for his use of the EIR Gernot Wagner.

I must be a hypocrite because as I said, I am hardwired by early exposure to the received wisdom of guitar elders and conditioned to desire BRW. For those who have not been so hardwired and conditioned, give EIR a good listen. Forget about BRW landscaping, forget about rarity, forget about bragging rights that accrue from its high boutique pricing, forget about its smell even. Give EIR a good solid listen and see if you do not actually prefer its conspicuously inconspicuous tonal palette to the obviously coloured sounding chiming rumbling BRW.

All IN MY Very Humble Ha'p'orth of Opinion, of course.
One of the best posts i have ever seen on a forum - i personally love eir. i also love my cocobolo, different tone, which works bc i like a wide variety of music

in terms of damping, it’s due to the stiffness - brazilian (and cocobolo) are more dense than a eir, which results in less damping

in a similar manner, spruces like adirondack are stiffer than western red cedar, adirondack is known for its headroom, whereas cedar is more known for its mellow tone

neither is better, just different.

Last edited by Kerbie; 01-15-2018 at 03:13 AM. Reason: Edited quote
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  #35  
Old 01-15-2018, 12:11 AM
jessupe jessupe is online now
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Well, I like to think of it like cars, in that for the most part, most cars are metal, glass, rubber and plastic and that even though those base materials are basically the same in the majority of cars made, when all is said and done those materials come together in very different ways that yield vastly different aesthetics and performance from model to model and manufacturer to manufacturer.
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  #36  
Old 01-15-2018, 02:57 AM
NotValid NotValid is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gitarro View Post
As a mere player and collector, i suspect using brazilian rosewood in a guitar is like using Valhorna chocolate to make a chocolate cake. You could use cheaper chocolate and if you were a better baker you could make it taste just as good. But a better baker loves to use the best ingredients and using the best chocolate can elevate the resulting cake to higher heights of culinary excellence.

Hsving said that i haven't tried to make a cake for almost 30 years so my analogy may not be accurate at all LOL
But what if that chocolate was picked by kids forced into slavery? Check out the documentary "The dark side of chocolate". Our lust for things that are rare is what's driving this planet to the tipping point. Every single purchase we make has consequences. I am not blaming or picking on anyone here as there are much bigger fish who are more responsible for the destruction of the rain forests than us guitar players. But does that give us the right to consume these endangered species? Because guitar building only uses a tiny percentage?
It's already starting to happen in some small circles (my friend being one) who would like to blame you (the rosewood guitar owner) for the destruction of our rain forests. But those circles are getting bigger and the next generation seems really, really pissed at the baby boomer generation for allowing and contributing (American Dream based consumerism) to this endless raping of our resources.

Again I am no blaming anyone here. I have also made purchases that had environmental and social consequences. The only thing we can do is to be aware of how we spend our money, what we buy or don't buy. For me any rainforest woods, palm oil, etc are a no go. I want my grandkids to breathe fresh air from wild, not plantation, forests.

Please say no to drugs and endagered woods. If you stop buying it, they stop making it. Capitalism is direct democracy.

Once again I apologize if this post seems offensive, I did not intend to be offensive. Just trying bring awareness, that's all.
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  #37  
Old 01-15-2018, 10:48 AM
mercy mercy is offline
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since we are a tiny part of the use of wood our not buying would have a tiny impact and therefore not change anything. If you think your guitar purchase makes a difference in the current or future world you are mistaken.
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  #38  
Old 01-15-2018, 12:08 PM
gitarro gitarro is offline
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If i said what i really think of the SJW generation...I won't as I dont want my post to be in breach of the rules of this forum...suffice to say a lot of information and ideological indoctrination does not necessarily equate to wisdom and knowledge...

Neither Valhorna chocolate nor brazilian rosewood was supplied by children in slave labour. The braz in USA that is of interest to buyers such as us are old growth sets that came into the country long ago.

The guitar industry consumption of rosewood is of insignificant contribution to the depletion and exhaustion of those resources globally. The culprits are clear cutting and development of the countries where they come from, the construction industry and more recently the Chinese rosewood furniture industry. The guitar industry is historically not responsible and is still not responsible in the modern day for the overharvesting of rosewood globally.

On the other hand the loss of rosewood to guitars is on the same level as losing all kinds of maple for the violin and cello industry. Rosewood is simply irreepleacable and the sad thing is that the draconian restrictions on the guitar industry will not likely save a single rosewood tree in the wild.




Quote:
Originally Posted by NotValid View Post
But what if that chocolate was picked by kids forced into slavery? Check out the documentary "The dark side of chocolate". Our lust for things that are rare is what's driving this planet to the tipping point. Every single purchase we make has consequences. I am not blaming or picking on anyone here as there are much bigger fish who are more responsible for the destruction of the rain forests than us guitar players. But does that give us the right to consume these endangered species? Because guitar building only uses a tiny percentage?
It's already starting to happen in some small circles (my friend being one) who would like to blame you (the rosewood guitar owner) for the destruction of our rain forests. But those circles are getting bigger and the next generation seems really, really pissed at the baby boomer generation for allowing and contributing (American Dream based consumerism) to this endless raping of our resources.

Again I am no blaming anyone here. I have also made purchases that had environmental and social consequences. The only thing we can do is to be aware of how we spend our money, what we buy or don't buy. For me any rainforest woods, palm oil, etc are a no go. I want my grandkids to breathe fresh air from wild, not plantation, forests.

Please say no to drugs and endagered woods. If you stop buying it, they stop making it. Capitalism is direct democracy.

Once again I apologize if this post seems offensive, I did not intend to be offensive. Just trying bring awareness, that's all.
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  #39  
Old 01-15-2018, 01:52 PM
svea svea is offline
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As the OP, I will make a bid for getting back on track. I think we are getting too far away from the original topic and heading into the political danger zone, and I'd hate to have this glorious discussion shut down by the moderators. It isn't that we don't care about these charged topics on saving or ruining the planet, as obviously we do!!

So, how about that lovely EIR?? I really like it when it is "good". How's that for subjective?

Svea
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  #40  
Old 01-15-2018, 03:58 PM
varmonter varmonter is offline
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i have a guitar that is adi over madi.
it's the best sounding guitar i have ever owned.
i've read that Madagascar rosewood is very
close in tonality to Brazilian. but it too is becoming
harder to come by. and it's doesnt have the name.

Last edited by varmonter; 01-15-2018 at 04:06 PM.
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  #41  
Old 01-15-2018, 07:53 PM
Von Beerhofen Von Beerhofen is offline
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I own 4 Madi guitars of various sizes, various brands (3 Martins, 1 Taylor) and various topwoods (2 x Adi, 2 Euro Spruce), , plus a SCGC Adi/BRW (figured stumpwood) OM, none older then 12 years and all I can say is that each one doesn't sound even close to any of the others. Compared to my 40+ year old laminated EIR solid spruce Ibanez they all sound great, including the Ibanez.

As for a chimey sound I think they all have that, some more then others, but they all have plenty for me to really like them. I might sell the high end guitars someday but I will never sell the Ibanez. I might also keep the one which is closest to my preferred sound/playing style, a 1931 Martin D28A but I'd hate to see the others go.

Ludwig

Last edited by Von Beerhofen; 01-15-2018 at 08:00 PM.
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  #42  
Old 01-15-2018, 08:03 PM
gitarro gitarro is offline
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I think EIRW in the hands of a good luthier can make a great guitar - I own and have owned several. Having said that, I do suspect that EIRW is inherently (big generalisation coming) tending to be more warm and less clear and less note separation and less glassy and less reverby than Brazilian rosewood. Madagascar rosewood may have more of those traits than EIRW but still tends to be not as much as braz. I have never found a tonewood that was like good brazilian rosewood. It is such a tragedy that the coastal forests of Brazil that supplied brazilian rosewood are mostly gone now and we will not see its like again when all the good sets of braz in north america and europe are gone.
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