Why do few major artists play Carbon?

[Pick guard]

Originally Posted by Ted @ LA Guitar Sales

and it's not likely the guitar will be dropped.

Completely disagree with your logic. While there is no gravity per se for something to be "dropped" there are a million and one sensitive things it can easily crash into.

[RustyZombie]

Originally Posted by Pick guard

Completely disagree with your logic. While there is no gravity per se for something to be "dropped" there are a million and one sensitive things it can easily crash into.

If one is more worried about all the sensitive things than the guitar, then whether its wood or carbon fiber doesn't really matter.

[AndyFrank]

Originally Posted by Pick guard

Completely disagree with your logic. While there is no gravity per se for something to be "dropped" there are a million and one sensitive things it can easily crash into.

Hey pick, learn to look for the smiles, it lets you know what the posters feeling, in this case Ted was having some fun with the gravity thing.

As to why NASA bought a Larrivee Parlor... well the second mistake was getting advice from a Guitar Center employee, first mistake was to go to Guitar Center in the first place.

BTW, last I heard Guitar Center dropped Larrivee, maybe the parlor was on closeout, two for one.

[Herrick]

Originally Posted by Swampdigger

A lot of tradition ... we cling to the past to protect us from the future. Does not all music draw from the past ?

I think this has a lot to do with the OP question. Look at the electric guitar world. Many of them play guitar brands that their influences played on classic albums. I only play 7-strings and if Fender put out a reasonably priced 7-string Strat, Herrick would be all over that. Then there are all the players who are into vintage guitars. I'd imagine the same thing happens in the acoustic guitar world. If so, that would rule out carbon fiber by default.

[Captaincranky]

Originally Posted by Captain Jim

...[ ]....If a manufacturer could make a guitar from plastic and make it sound good, the price would be less expensive than wood... vaccu-form 'em, and knock 'em out. Carbon fiber guitars are not made by pouring liquid plastic in a mold.

"Lyrachord', is a 'composite' of fiberglass & plastic. Because nobody would have bought them if the were referred to as, "genuine plastic".

Some manufacturing processes are more involved than others. And some uses of plastic aren't as simple as vacuum forming cheap children's toys, destined for the dollar store.

In the beginning, post World War 2, the types of plastic were very limited. They were also markedly inferior to natural materials at that time. The biggest joke of the decade was when ad agencies tried to sell the garbage as, "genuine plastic", as if their actually was such a thing.

Any type of plastic, is a poor substitute for wood and leather, in certain applications, leather for shoes and wood for furniture spring to mind. But yet the best , most durable covering for furniture, are 'synthetic fibers', better known as, 'plastic'.

The amount of design necessary to make plastics function, as for an example, speaker cabinets, drives up the cost. Common particle board, is still less resonant and sounds better. But you know, it's heavy, and above all else, we wouldn't want the customer whining about the weight involved when they tried to move it.

Then too there was the whole thing about a pair wooden cabinet of JBL Century 100's, sounding a whole lot better than even the biggest, most obnoxious boom boxes, that the sales of drugs could buy.

As it stands currently, the types of 'plastic' are so diverse, and encompass so many different petrochemical compounds, the term 'plastic' is for all intents and purposes, so generic as to be meaningless as an descriptor.

In any case, carbon fiber composites are plastic, to the extent that the carbon fiber is a stiffener and former, and the thermo-'plastic' goo, that binds it together is a synthetic compound, derived from petro-chemicals.

The same with Corvettes since they were first introduced, fiberglass acts as a former and stiffener, and the goo that holds it all together is is a catalytic polyester resin, often generically referred to as "plastic".

Originally Posted by Captain Jim

Just like fiberglass/composite boats own the market. Oh, and how many wood airplanes do you see these days? Got a wood bicycle frame? Don't get me wrong - I love my wood guitars. I've been playing for 50 years, and have learned that there are options.

Captain Jim

None of those things are in any way critiqued or constructed based on their tonality, or utility, as musical instruments.

So, people do like wood guitars because they like the look and sound of wooden guitars. I don't think that is really argumentative. And simply because people are more traditional is no good reason to rail against them. And BTW, carbon fiber composites still have a sizable percentage of their makeup, based in organic compounds that can be generically lumped in the category of, 'plastic'.

I actually saw a carbon fiber acoustic that intrigued me (*). I suppose, due to the small market share of composite guitars, I'll have to wait decades, if at all, to be able to obtain one in a left hand model. So if you need me, I'll be out in the proverbial wood pile.

(*) I think the Emerald X-20.I liked the top sound port.

[Matt McGriff]

Your generalization of carbon fiber as plastic and the attempt to lump them together and imply that carbon fiber guitars are simply grossly overpriced plastic guitars is inaccurate. That type of generalization is like saying that all wood guitars are made from the plywood I can find in the lumber row at home depot.
I work in an industry where we deal with very expensive plastics that cost far more than any carbon fiber guitar. There is so much more that goes into a product than just its material. It's the expertise to be able to manufacture it in a reproducible manner.
I take my cf guitar into environments that I would never take a $2000 wood guitar into, because it would fail me. I will gladly take my rainsong, because it is resilient and is consistently complimented for its sound, by those that hear it live and sound engineers as they monitor it through the PA.

[steelvibe]

I don't think Captain Jim is trying to "rail", as you say, against anyone. He did note that he loves his wood guitars and you quoted that section of his writing (I think he owns at least 2 Taylors). After reading your rant I realized that the main point to what you were saying is summed up in the last couple sentences. I get it, you don't like carbon fiber guitars and think they are glorified plastic.

I also love wood guitars; the aesthetics, the smell, and for sure the tone. Having said that, Captain Jim and myself are one of a few who have discovered that carbon fiber guitars have a place in our hearts. If you don't that is fine, but you won't find me berating the purchases others have made of their wooden instruments in other sections of the forum. I feel that is the purpose of your post. Do I resent it? No. I just played my Breedlove last night and played my RainSong this morning. Both beautiful instruments but I find myself more excited about the RainSong. I'm finding that I'm not nearly a materials enthusiast as much as a guitar enthusiast and can not believe the top end of carbon fiber- it blows wood away. Wooden guitars, especially those between the $1-3K range, get choked in the trebles and notes have fast decay and less sonic richness in general. Playing up the neck on my RainSong sounds like playing a hybrid of a guitar and piano and sounds amazing to my ears. One of my guitars is up for sale- I bet you can guess which one

Carbon fiber guitars are superior in at least one way that I think we can all agree- if we decide to have jam over at your wood pile and it decides to rain......

[mot]

I could argue for or against some aspect of recent posts, but I find that in guitar preferences like politics there's just no reason to waste the energy on changing minds of those who aren't able to see another side.

Instead I'll spend that energy in a more positive fashion and practice chords and associated scales in the Gary Burton class I am taking.

Later,

[ac]

Originally Posted by Captaincranky

I . . . . . In any case, carbon fiber composites are plastic . . .

More of the same old, same old.

He probably hasn't had time to read past threads.

I do note that he joined the forum less than 2 weeks ago and pumps out more than 8 posts per day. Lots to say, likes to write.

Doesn't like composites, but makes a special effort to come specifically to composites section of AGF just to tell people interested in composites how awful composites are.

And so it goes . . . . (sigh)

[Captaincranky]

Originally Posted by ac

More of the same old, same old.

He probably hasn't had time to read past threads.

I do note that he joined the forum less than 2 weeks ago and pumps out more than 8 posts per day. Lots to say, likes to write.

Doesn't like composites, but makes a special effort to come specifically to composites section of AGF just to tell people interested in composites how awful composites are.

And so it goes . . . . (sigh)

Not really. I was speaking the truth when I said I was interested in the Emerald guitars. But wouldn't likely be able to get one since I play left handed.

I also said that the term "plastic" is so broad that it's practically meaningless. Not that far in the future, Webster's may put the term, '* archaic', next to it.

For example, if we were in a a war zone, I'd gladly take the Kevlar vest, and you could have the injection molded styrene version. You're welcome! Wazza matter, they're both plastic?

But I also said, "it's inane to compare a composite aircraft to a composite guitar.

I also think it's wonderful that you could play your Rainsong in the middle of the Sahara Desert in July, and not damage it.

Originally Posted by steelvibe

I don't think Captain Jim is trying to "rail", as you say, against anyone. He did note that he loves his wood guitars and you quoted that section of his writing (I think he owns at least 2 Taylors). After reading your rant I realized that the main point to what you were saying is summed up in the last couple sentences. I get it, you don't like carbon fiber guitars and think they are glorified plastic.

I also love wood guitars; the aesthetics, the smell, and for sure the tone. Having said that, Captain Jim and myself are one of a few who have discovered that carbon fiber guitars have a place in our hearts. .

I seemed suffer a complete fail, in trying to communicate what my intent was. No matter, as it has been pointed out, I do enjoy writing, and I do enjoy the parry and thrust of forum life.

Most of the noise coming from this forum is backlash against wood guitar owners. So, "haters gonna hate, and the hated's gonna hate back", no matter which side of the topic starts the ball rolling. But simply because you can take your Emerald out with bass fishing in a leaky rowboat, doesn't make it superior to wood, either aesthetically or sonically. Hey, I think the Adamas all composites are cool as heck. Not to mention its aesthetic quality, that of a high grade military weapon! (I'm serious).

The main point I was trying to make, is "plastic" is a noun or adjective, which has lost most of its meaning. Yes, carbon fiber composite contains compounds that could loosely be described as, "plastic". Using the same yardstick, "plastic", isn't the pejorative term you choose to accept it as, or take offense at.

As for my being a "noob" in this forum, trust me, I'm not a noob to forums in the least.

Anyway, I don't own two Taylors, my instruments would likely be scorned by the wooden effete here.

And truthfully, thanks for the vote of confidence on me not being trolling, I wasn't. I've been around long enough to know that dogma is still dogma, whether the topic is plastic or matchsticks...

[Captain Jim]

No "railing" on my part. No desire to "thrust or parry" with anyone. "The noise from this forum" is absolutely NOT anti-wood... if one thinks that, they have no comprehension of what is being discussed here: most of us that regularly post in this forum are open to various materials. If fact, hang around here long enough to do more than try to stir things up, and you'll find that many of us own wood and CF guitars... and enjoy them both.

When someone comes here with the expressed purpose of stating how bad carbon fiber is as a guitar material, they simply show their ignorance. I don't think anyone here (myself included) "rails" - make your own decisions. If you don't like it, fine. Denigrate the purpose of this forum, and some of us may point out your lack of experience. Having posted a bunch on other forums does not make you an authority - it simply shows that you have time and an internet connection. There are plenty of opinions all over the internet... some experience shows us that not all are valid. It is sad when people get on a friendly forum just to "thrust and parry." Really, that is not what this sub-
forum is about.

For the record, I own 4 Taylors. And a Gibson. And a RainSong. I enjoy them all. The "Captain" in my forum name here was earned: I hold a Master License.

I have enough life experience to know better than give anyone advance notice that I am "cranky." You're not the first to come here looking to create a problem, and taking something I wrote out of context. My participation here has been inclusive, not exclusive... unless you show yourself to be a troll (which you have done). At which point, I have no interest in having a battle of wits with an unarmed person.

Like carbon fiber or don't. Your choice, it doesn't affect me. Say stupid stuff and it simply shows your ignorance... which, again, doesn't affect me.

My one and only response to the cranky boy.

[Captaincranky]

Originally Posted by Captain Jim

No "railing" on my part. No desire to "thrust or parry" with anyone. "The noise from this forum" is absolutely NOT anti-wood... if one thinks that, they have no comprehension of what is being discussed here: most of us that regularly post in this forum are open to various materials. If fact, hang around here long enough to do more than try to stir things up, and you'll find that many of us own wood and CF guitars... and enjoy them both.

When someone comes here with the expressed purpose of stating how bad carbon fiber is as a guitar material, they simply show their ignorance. I don't think anyone here (myself included) "rails" - make your own decisions. If you don't like it, fine. Denigrate the purpose of this forum, and some of us may point out your lack of experience. Having posted a bunch on other forums does not make you an authority - it simply shows that you have time and an internet connection. There are plenty of opinions all over the internet... some experience shows us that not all are valid. It is sad when people get on a friendly forum just to "thrust and parry." Really, that is not what this sub-
forum is about.

For the record, I own 4 Taylors. And a Gibson. And a RainSong. I enjoy them all. The "Captain" in my forum name here was earned: I hold a Master License.

I have enough life experience to know better than give anyone advance notice that I am "cranky." You're not the first to come here looking to create a problem, and taking something I wrote out of context. My participation here has been inclusive, not exclusive... unless you show yourself to be a troll (which you have done). At which point, I have no interest in having a battle of wits with an unarmed person.

Like carbon fiber or don't. Your choice, it doesn't affect me. Say stupid stuff and it simply shows your ignorance... which, again, doesn't affect me.

My one and only response to the cranky boy.

Where exactly did a state that, "I didn't like carbon fiber"? I said the compounds involved in bonding the materials could loosely, and in the vernacular, be referred to as "plastic". You're imploding into your own autocratic superiority complex. Which is all bluster, and zero reading comprehension.

FWIW, I've had two Ovations, one of which I had custom built, and it was pure garbage. In tonality, and in that famed, "American craftsmanship". It was best described as, "poorly union made, by the greatly overpaid". I'd like to take this opportunity to point out none of the issues with this guitar were in any way related to the, "Lyrachord" bowl. That was fine, even the best part.

That remark was obviously predicated on the rather tenuous assumption, that I'm allowed to have an opinion on where or what, I've spent my own money to obtain.

[billder99]

Originally Posted by Captaincranky

... Most of the noise coming from this forum is backlash against wood guitar owners. So, "haters gonna hate, and the hated's gonna hate back", no matter which side of the topic starts the ball rolling. ... I've been around long enough to know that dogma is still dogma, whether the topic is plastic or matchsticks...

Cranky, please link to a post on the CF forum that you consider "backlash against wood guitar owners". Just a post... not even a whole thread. Betcha' can't find one that qualifies. Talk about baseless rhetoric...

Every... single... person... no exceptions... that owns CF and participates on this CF forum is respectful of wood guitars. We are also open minded enough to actually give alternative materials a real test drive. If all you do is play a few CFs in a few shops you really know nothing about them, rendering your opinion meaninless. (re your experience with Ovation... they are different animals from today's CF... I also had a bad experience owning one) It takes time for the ear to adjust to any new tonality... and as with wood, not all CF guitars are the same... not by a long shot... some are truly great, some are barely mediocre... just like with wood.

[Captaincranky]

Originally Posted by billder99

Cranky, please link to a post on the CF forum that you consider "backlash against wood guitar owners". Just a post... not even a whole thread. Betcha' can't find one that qualifies. Talk about baseless rhetoric...

Every... single... person... no exceptions... that owns CF and participates on this CF forum is respectful of wood guitars. We are also open minded enough to actually give alternative materials a real test drive. If all you do is play a few CFs in a few shops you really know nothing about them, rendering your opinion meaninless. (re your experience with Ovation... they are different animals from today's CF... I also had a bad experience owning one) It takes time for the ear to adjust to any new tonality... and as with wood, not all CF guitars are the same... not by a long shot... some are truly great, some are barely mediocre... just like with wood.

No, I was making a generalization. The member from LA Guitars come in last night and more of less got accused of trolling.

As I've repeatedly tried to explain, I gave sort of a history of "plastic". Once upon a time, (when I was a boy), plastics were junk. It was in the infantile stage of the industry. Today, 'plastics', are huge section of the petro-chemical industry. We still lump them together as 'plastic', and that isn't necessarily a matter of condescension, just simple convenience. What the hay,I can remember telling the guy with the Corvette,"you still drivin' that plastic junk". And truth to tell, it was in the context of admiration, with a twinge of jealousy.

So, as I also stated, I kind of would like to try one of the Emerald pieces, (I think the sound port is pretty cool), but given the current market share of composites, it's understandable that most makers, aren't in a position to pander to lefties. And so, I wait. I think Rainsong makes an LH model, but it's above my price range.

And honestly, I'm fully aware that any new tech is going to have a new sound. I haven't drawn any conclusion as to quality. I expect it's going to be an acquired taste, as is moving between 6, 12, and nylon strung, standard wood guitars.

Ovations have a place and a purpose. As performance instruments they excel. They have a distinct sound, which I find pleasurable. I've certainly never judged, or failed to appreciate any artist whose music I enjoy, simply because they play an Ovation. That said, I think they're more suitable for the stage context, than as an at home strummer.

As far as claiming that because no one flies wooden aircraft anymore, and that means composite materials are automatically wood's successor the the throne in musical instruments, that's patently absurd. (*) That statement was perpetrated by the other "captain", not me,and it was before I made my first post. The sad fact is, that composites may be the successor to wooden instruments, because we've killed all the trees.


(*) And I'm not going to revisit every post in this thread to find that. I also may have paraphrased that a bit. Still,the general gist is correct

[billder99]

Originally Posted by Captaincranky

(*) And I'm not going to revisit every post in this thread to find that. I also may have paraphrased that a bit. Still,the general gist is correct

No, the "gist" is NOT correct. I asked a very direct question. Are you going to dodge it? Your seemingly reasonable misdirections do not hide your attacks on CF and CF owners. If you disagree, simply post ONE link to a post as I requested.