Layering percussion

[buzzardwhiskey]

Originally Posted by KevWind

First thing we need to get clear on what type of midi drum part the OP actually has.
And second we should get our terminology on the same page.

Midi drum" loop" is a pre recorded drum part usually from 1 to 8 bars long (perhaps 12 bars if it is a blues loop) that can be imported into a stereo track and duplicated back to back for the length of the song.

Midi drum samples are recordings of a single drum element/instruments (like a kick drum, or a snare drum, or a hi hat cymbal etc.) and are one hit long (or sometimes short fills like for snare)
These individual drum sounds can then be triggered and played and recorded (programed) on to their own individual tracks, via a keyboard (either virtual or actual outboard midi keyboard).
So you could have the kick on a single mono track the snare on a single mono track etc. etc.
It sounded from his comments to me like Buzzard had used this second method ( I could be mistaken) perhaps he can clarify.

There is also midi pattern sequencing but that's a different discussion

Well, OK. Lots of mixed (ha ha) responses from "it'll never sound as good" to "we do it all the time". So I guess I'll just treat it as an adventure and a learning process.

To KevWind's question... though I'm not at all certain I understand, I'll try to explain what I've done so far...

I piece together dozens of 4, 8 and sometimes 12 "beat" EZ Drummer 2 segments. One verse of a song typically has 3, 4, 6 or even 8 of these segments. Then I choose a slightly different set of segments for the chorus, and so on. All these segments use from 5 to 12 tracks (one for each fake percussive instrument mic).

Once the midi drum parts are assembled for the whole song, I record my acoustic guitar on top. Then I've been going over to a band member's house to record bass (via a DI), mandolin, more acoustic guitar and some resonator.

Here's an example...

[Brent Hahn]

Originally Posted by buzzardwhiskey

Here's an example...

Sounds pretty solid to me. So far so good :-).

[KevWind]

Originally Posted by buzzardwhiskey

Well, OK. Lots of mixed (ha ha) responses from "it'll never sound as good" to "we do it all the time". So I guess I'll just treat it as an adventure and a learning process.

To KevWind's question... though I'm not at all certain I understand, I'll try to explain what I've done so far...

I piece together dozens of 4, 8 and sometimes 12 "beat" EZ Drummer 2 segments. One verse of a song typically has 3, 4, 6 or even 8 of these segments. Then I choose a slightly different set of segments for the chorus, and so on. All these segments use from 5 to 12 tracks (one for each fake percussive instrument mic).

Once the midi drum parts are assembled for the whole song, I record my acoustic guitar on top. Then I've been going over to a band member's house to record bass (via a DI), mandolin, more acoustic guitar and some resonator.

Here's an example...

OK so if I understand correctly then you did not actually do the method I described .

To clarify these "EZ Drum segments" are "pre recorded" full drum kit parts of 4 or more beats (i.e...1 or more bars) in length. To further clarify you are not triggering these individual beats/notes with the virtual keyboard or midi keyboard --Correct ?

And these segments show up as audio waveforms in audio tracks or midi notes in midi tracks ?


So it sounds like in essence these pre recorded segments are loops and you are changing them to get changing rhythm patterns happening .

But these drum kit segments/loops are outputting the individual instruments to their own separate tracks. --Correct ?

What I was describing (that I thought you were doing) wis called "programing" where with the keyboard you trigger (play) each individual drum instrument note sound yourself into a midi track . In other words you are playing the drum kit parts yourself but using a midi keyboard (and hitting for example the C 1 key for the kick drum, and the D1 key for the snare etc. etc.) instead of actually hitting real drums themselves.

Don' t worry about mixed replies . Some are based the "ideal situation" and some are based on some fairly outmoded notions. Some are based on the reality of using limited home studio equipment . Just go for it and as my sig line says 'Enjoy the Journey"
It is a learning curve like everything else in life .

[buzzardwhiskey]

You got it, dude!

In some ways, were I or the drummer hitting something, I'd probably just stop there. Because to me this is as real as hitting a non-virtual drum these days. Right? Every subtlety is available with these virtual instruments.

But, I'm not playing a keyboard or any other trigger. I'm just copying and pasting pre-recorded bars.

I'm having a grand time. My band mates are into it, and it's something new.

[Al Acuff]

As an experiment some folks recorded a symphony orchestra using one track per instrument and close miking everything. Then they tried to mix it so that it would sound like a symphony orchestra. It didn't work.

There was a time when you got all the musicians together in the same room and then recorded a hit record in three minutes. Have you watched the American Epic series? Jack White, T-Bone, and Robert Redford produced it together. It's a history of early recording technology and the effect it had on our music.

American Epic offers food for thought for us home recordists––especially the fourth episode where you get to observe some actual recording sessions done with a restored antique Western Electric electronic recording machine. You get to watch the session and hear the recorded performance. Highly recommended!

[DupleMeter]

As a matter of history here - the one or 2 parts at a time drum recording was common for a lot of the early '80s recordings (if you listen you'll hear some 3 handed drummers on some of those "arena rock" albums).

They typically did the drums in 3 takes: kick & snare first, toms 2nd, cymbals 3rd. They were pretty good about keeping it real, but you will hear spots where a 2 handed tom fill flies right over a snare & hi-hat hit.

I guess what I'm saying. It can be done...because it was done. And to (arguably) very good results.

In the words of Joe Meek "if it sounds right it is right!"...go for it.

[Mobilemike]

Originally Posted by buzzardwhiskey

We will get rid of the midi stuff altogether. It will be replaced, one "type of drum" at a time.

So I'm thinking, turn off the midi kick and record some kind of real kick (maybe using two mics). Then turn off the midi snare and record a real snare.

At each point, the drummer needn't follow the original drum pattern, but is free to do their own thing. When all is said and done we'll have real drums!

You'll need a very patient drummer. Don't try to have them play each element in isolation though (i.e., just play the kik, then just play the snare, etc.). Thats the quickest way to get a strange sounding, lifeless performance. If you must do it this way, then have them play the entire kit each time, and only mic the drums you want to record. Yes you will get bleed from the rest of the kit... just like you would in a real drum session. Bleed is your friend.

Really though, don't discount the method of just recording the drums with 2 mics - perhaps a mono overhead (centered over the snare) and a kik drum mic. Lots of cool records have been made this way and it can vibe really well. If you want stereo you can always layer aux percussion like shakers, bongos, etc over the top of the real kit.

-Mike

[Bob Womack]

Toto's Rosanna was recorded over a multitrack loop of Jeff Porcarro playing one bar. They had a hard time getting that interesting swing drum groove just right when played through.

I record without a drummer fairly often. I am a "fixer." I am a recording engineer/producer who is fairly often sent songs that "aren't working" and being asked to make them work. The two most prevalent screw-ups that kill a song are drum grooves and guitars. In order to square things away I will either augment or replace the drum groove and the drum sounds. Here's how I do it:

I guess I should mention that I don’t like canned drums because they seem to me to have no soul. To get some feel in the playing, I “play” the drums. I don a pair of headphones, place an inexpensive ElectroVoice RE-15 dynamic mic over the elbow pad of the mixing console, and tap out the parts. I'll start by recording the kick and snare and I split their beats to two tracks. You need to record at least enough to get the human feel and groove and then edit those in. The moment I get the basic kick and snare beat in place I use the Drumagog plug-in to replace the drab sound of my tapping with real drum sounds in order to help get me in the mood. Then I built the drums from front to back, adding fills and cymbal splashes where needed. There’s a bit of manipulating involved: for example the hi-hat can be articulated as if you were riding the pedal by adjusting a fader within Drumagog. I used the automation to control that fader and thus the location of the pedal so that my hi-hat opened and closed appropriately. Obviously it takes some imagination to do it like a real drummer with ghost notes on the hat, etc.

There is one change in order, however, from your thought proces that I always use: I always build the complete drum set first because drums motivate me as a player. To accomplish that I'll drop in named visual cue points on the DAW's timeline and then record a scratch acoustic guitar over the basic beat. I can then built the drums to the changes.

The next thing I perform is the bass, because the basic rhythm section is drums and bass.

The way to make it work is to think drummer, and to adopt a persona in your drum mindset. My favorite two are... drum rooll... Jeff Porcarro and Joe Vitale (Joe Walsh, CSNY, etc.) Ask "How would my target drummer play this?" and then apply the answer. Here are some examples:

The Smile in Her Eyes © ℗ 2017 Robert C. Womack. Ground-up build. There are ghost hi-hat notes with articulation through-out. The hi-hat and ride cymbal emphasize the backbeat quietly. On the fourth beat of each bar, the snare is reinforced by the hi-hat on the right and "Judy, the drummer's girlfriend," tapping a tambourine on the left. The drummer rushes the accents on the snare in the changes out of excitement.

WADE Note the articulation of the high-hat at the top. This is a ground-up build.

Example 4 This is a re-drum.

Bob

[KevWind]

Hey great info Bob thanks There ya go people .... Bob's post proves once again that "Sweeping Declarative Glittering Generalities" ( SDGG) about what can or can't be done, or how you should or should not "do it"..... are probably not worth the virtual paper they are posted on

Also we might note that for example, the Beatles Sgt. Peppers recording broke many of the Glittering Generalities of the day and became a seminal recording .

Here is an example (nowhere near as professional and real sounding as Bob's examples ) using "real drum" single sample sounds and programing/ playing them into a midi drum beat.
Starting with the kick and then adding each drum instrument.
This was an early effort at programing drums ( not to mention I am by no stretch a drummer) so it is pretty mediocre, and there are some things I would now change ( and still can given it is midi) I would take out at least 1/2 of the cymbals crash and ride hits ( too random and too many ) and probably change up the rhythm and tone down on the hi hat hits.