12 fret cutaway or OM advice?

[stevecuss]

AGF has been a wealth of information for me over the years and I'm hoping to learn something new in this thread as well.

I learned about Dermott McIlroy on AGF and am now the proud owner of a wonderful McIlroy Jumbo - it is the classic Irish jumbo with great overtones. My budget didn't allow for a Lowden, but I've been thrilled with the pre owned Mcilory. I've typically been a "one guitar" guy but long term, I'd like to eventually complement it with a small body "American" sounding guitar.

I was thinking I'd look into an OM guitar, but recently stumbled across a 12 fret 000 that really took my breath away. I want the opposite sound from my Mcilroy, so probably something resembling a vintage Martin sound. I've played a 000-18, a Laurence Juber Signature, a few different Bourgeois, Collings and Santa Cruz.

The 12 fret was a Preston Thompson Adi/Mahogany which may have done me in - holy smokes, it was amazing, but at $5600 is going to be out of reach for some time.

I'm asking two questions and would appreciate any feedback:

1) What is the tonal benefit of a 12 fret small body over a 14 fret OM? I understand scale length etc, but whats' your take on tonal difference? I'd need a cutaway if I go with a 12 fret, but I'm intrigued by them.

2) What builders should I factor for a 12 fret 000 cutaway? Particularly someone who goes after the vintage Martin sound? I've listed the names I know above, but would appreciate hearing about luthiers who specialize in this realm. I typically shop pre owned in the 2500 - 4000 range. I may well not be able to beat a clean Martin Authentic, for example.

It may be a while before I can pull the trigger, but I'd appreciate any feedback.

[dneal]

The tonal difference is that generally a 12 fret is warmer and richer than its 14 fret counterpart.

You'll get a lot of reasons for this, like scale length and positioning the bridge in the "sweet spot"; and that may or may not be true. It's certainly hard to prove. What is demonstrable true is that you are (usually) playing closer to the 12th fret. Take your guitar and position your hand 1" closer to the bridge, then your normal picking position, and then 1" closer to the 12th fret. You'll hear the difference. Classical players exploit this in their technique.

For builders in your price range, a Bourgeois OMS with cutaway is probably the most readily available. Although they're out there, 12 fretters with cutaway and the tonal characteristics you're looking for aren't particularly common. Most that do vintage Martin type work tend to stick with vintage Martin shapes, and 12 fret cutaways aren't vintage-y.

[Kh1967]

I am sure the 12 fret Thompson was wonderful. I just took delivery of a 14 fret 00 built by Preston and of course....I am contemplating a 12 fret down the road.

If you are open to a 00, Collings does a great 12 fret and the Santa Cruz Eric Skye is spectacular.

[stevecuss]

Originally Posted by Kh1967

I am sure the 12 fret Thompson was wonderful. I just took delivery of a 14 fret 00 built by Preston and of course....I am contemplating a 12 fret down the road.

If you are open to a 00, Collings does a great 12 fret and the Santa Cruz Eric Skye is spectacular.

The only 00 guitars I've tried are Martin and they were both quite boxy sounding. I thought they sounded great actually, but thought the next size up had more openness overall. Could that be a distinct Martin thing? i.e., does your 14 fret 00 compete with a 000 for tone and depth?

and yeah, the Preston Thompson really got under my skin - just an amazing guitar. I don't imagine many pre owned examples will pop up.

[stevecuss]

Originally Posted by dneal

The tonal difference is that generally a 12 fret is warmer and richer than its 14 fret counterpart.

You'll get a lot of reasons for this, like scale length and positioning the bridge in the "sweet spot"; and that may or may not be true. It's certainly hard to prove. What is demonstrable true is that you are (usually) playing closer to the 12th fret. Take your guitar and position your hand 1" closer to the bridge, then your normal picking position, and then 1" closer to the 12th fret. You'll hear the difference. Classical players exploit this in their technique.

For builders in your price range, a Bourgeois OMS with cutaway is probably the most readily available. Although they're out there, 12 fretters with cutaway and the tonal characteristics you're looking for aren't particularly common. Most that do vintage Martin type work tend to stick with vintage Martin shapes, and 12 fret cutaways aren't vintage-y.

Great, this is really helpful, thanks. I hadn't considered playing position, but of course it makes sense. I play up the neck a good bit, otherwise I'd skip the cutaway altogether. I may yet stick with a 14 fret OM but the scale length, look and tone of the 12 fret really has me intrigued. I've seen some Bourgeois OMS guitars floating around the classifieds and I like Dana's build approach a lot - that would definitely be in contention.

[Kh1967]

Originally Posted by stevecuss

The only 00 guitars I've tried are Martin and they were both quite boxy sounding. I thought they sounded great actually, but thought the next size up had more openness overall. Could that be a distinct Martin thing? i.e., does your 14 fret 00 compete with a 000 for tone and depth?

and yeah, the Preston Thompson really got under my skin - just an amazing guitar. I don't imagine many pre owned examples will pop up.

Hi,

I don't think the boxy tone is unique to Martin, as it can happen with other builders. That said, there are plenty of 00s that do not have a boxy quality. Personally, I don't care for a boxy tone and I play almost exclusively 00s and 0s.

And yes, my Thompson more than competes with 000s for tone and depth. It was one of the reasons that I chose a Thompson for my 50th birthday present :-)

Check out his website...he has a 00-18 video posted on his site and I think it will give you a little perspective.

Good luck in your journey. Keep us posted!

[stevecuss]

Originally Posted by Kh1967

Hi,

I don't think the boxy tone is unique to Martin, as it can happen with other builders. That said, there are plenty of 00s that do not have a boxy quality. Personally, I don't care for a boxy tone and I play almost exclusively 00s and 0s.

And yes, my Thompson more than competes with 000s for tone and depth. It was one of the reasons that I chose a Thompson for my 50th birthday present :-)

Check out his website...he has a 00-18 video posted on his site and I think it will give you a little perspective.

Good luck in your journey. Keep us posted!

Will do, thanks! This journey will be a long, slow one, most likely and Preston's guitars will likely be the standard by which I measure others.

Just an FYI when comparing guitars, Martin OM's and standard production 12 fret 000's are both long scale. Always have been. People often assume that 12 fret implies a shorter scale, but that is not the case with Martin 12 fret 000's.

In another quirk of history Martin postwar 12 fret 00-45's were long scale too.

Custom Shop guitars could be either scale length of course.

[Rudy4]

I don't look for guitars at that price point, but would comment that since you normally play a lot up the neck I'd personally go for a 14 fret.
I also use that real estate, often capoing at the seventh fret. I have found the 14 fret guitars are a better solution, and prefer them to the cutaway. I purchased a new Lowden cutaway many years ago and found that it didn't allow access in the same way as just having more frets to the body allows.
I have a few nice instruments, but I usually stick to my main guitar for the most part. It sounds like that's your M.O. also.

[Larry Pattis]

Originally Posted by stevecuss

<<snip>>

1) What is the tonal benefit of a 12 fret small body over a 14 fret OM? I understand scale length etc,

<<snip>>

FYI:

The scale length of a guitar is not directly related to the number of frets to the body.

You can have a 25.5" scale 12 fret guitar, and a 24.9" (or less) scale 14 fret guitar...or anything in-between, or vice-versa.

[FormerFoodie]

This is not a 12 fret, but it is a used Preston Thompson that fits within your budget.

http://collingsforum.com/eve/forums/...1470041686/p/2

The seller is a well-respected member of the Collings Forum/community. If you are not set on a 12 fret only, you may want to consider it.

Let us know what you decide!

[Kh1967]

Originally Posted by FormerFoodie

This is not a 12 fret, but it is a used Preston Thompson that fits within your budget.

http://collingsforum.com/eve/forums/...1470041686/p/2

The seller is a well-respected member of the Collings Forum/community. If you are not set on a 12 fret only, you may want to consider it.

Let us know what you decide!

And the seller is fantastic, as well. This is a very good deal all around.

[Pitar]

Short scale - Less tension, greater displacement of the strings yielding longer vibration periods = better string energy for the same effort imparted to the strings on longer scales.

[ChrisN]

Another variable to consider - a shorter-scale 12 fret will sound different from a full-scale 12 fret due to the bridge being placed 1/2" or so further from the soundhole on the full-scale, closer to the center of the lower bout's max width. Apparently, full-scale's the way it was done in the Olde Tyme, so some consider that the "proper" way to do a 12 fret. Others say the sound is better (less bassy?) with the bridge a bit closer to the soundhole, and the lower string tension is easier, to boot. Just something else to consider.

[stevecuss]

That Thompson OM is fantastic. I'm a while away from pulling the trigger, but its very encouraging to see a PT guitar in the used market.