compositionally speaking...

[David Rock]

This may not be the place for this inquiry, but...in that "Classical Guitar" is virtually all instrumental, I thought I would start here.

I write my own compositions (for solo guitar). They are not classical, though some might think they are classical in nature. I am still not sure how to catalog my work.

That aside, I am looking for others to share ideas regarding compositions.

This inquiry is prompted by a song I am currently working on that starts as 3/4 time but moves quickly to 4/4 and then back. So although I have learned songs that change time signature, I have never written one. But that is how this one is progressing.

I can hum it, but getting my fingers around it is...well it's tough.

For anyone interested, here is my soundcloud account: https://soundcloud.com/davidnomadrock to hear my style.

I would love to discuss composition with anyone.

Regards
David Rock

[rick-slo]

I will now and then compose tunes that change time signatures. Usually I do it in the interest of the melody line I want to use or simply for rhythmic interest.
A couple of examples on my tabs page are "In The Mists Of Time" and "Three Steps to Joy".

[David Rock]

Thanks Derek...Great website and tabs. I will revisit this for some better "look see".

The songs you mentioned appeared to shift to 6/4 time for a single phrase (?) and I understand how that is a good transitional method to new "thoughts".

I will continue to work this song and bring a sketch to AGF as soon as I have something. It might be I rewrite the 3/4 section to 4/4 for continuity...I'm still digging on this.

Regards
David

[rick-slo]

Here is another example where I changed the timing around a few times to fit what I wanted to do:

http://dcoombsguitar.com/Misc/PinkyBee.pdf

and the midi of it:

http://dcoombsguitar.com/Misc/PinkyBee.mid

[David Rock]

We made it deep into the Bahamas after some long passages on sailing vessel NOMAD -- which gave me time to think -- or more appropriately clear my mind. I find the freedom of the Bahamas inspirational.

So here is a "sketch" of the song I was working on. As soon as I was free of land, it all fell into place (in 3/4 (or maybe 6/8?)time). The chord progression in the B section is what I originally "heard" in 4/4 time, but when I gave it a chance to breathe, it fell in line with the rest...

Key of D, Drop D tuning. There are 4 sections. the D section starts at 2:40...I am curious for opinions regarding this section.

All in all it seems like a song I will be able to play with variations on quite easily.

I have had a hard time playing this song, not because it is difficult (in fact it is not) but more because...well I don't know. This song reminds me of how many hours I spend working to create a 4 minute song. Do I have nothing better to do? No, I guess not!

I don't know if this take is worthy of the "Show and Tell" or not???

Regards to all

David Rock

[Halftone]

Hi David,

I too am mostly writing instrumentals for Guitar. My interests are quite wide and I write everything from pseudo classical to jazz and folk.

I have also written pieces and have arranged them using a DAW and Samples triggered by Keyboard. I often add some guitar as well.

It is always interesting to know where people get there ideas and what their process is for writing.

Many of my ideas come simply from noodling. I have also found that moving page by page through books of chords and playing with the different voicings is fun and quite productive.

I rarely have a theme in mind. Most of my themes are a result of a little tinkering on the guitar, although I have written based only on a theme.

I do miss working with someone but finding people on the same wavelength can be difficult.

What about you. How do you find ideas? I can see why your Nomad Sketch came together when you were out on the water. It really has that smooth carefree sound of freedom.

John

[David Rock]

John Halftone...

Thanks for the reply. We might have much in common. And I too wonder where and why I find these threads - music- ah - songs. They do all seem to start with a "noodle" of sorts. Some I hang onto for months or years before they find their way out of my "basement". Then! Wham! In short order they are thoughts then...well songs.

This one Nomad Song, happened rather quickly but started poorly which was the beginning of this thread. How do I get my own self out of the way and let it materialize? Now there's a good question!

I kind of hoped this thread might joggle some composers out there to lend something. And I appreciate the responses.

So it sounds like we are on the same page so to speak when writing...If I am able to get out of the way, melody happens. After that I look for chords that will build a base line. That is unless a base line says, "melody me". Ha! I guess it works both ways!

So maybe we have more to discuss? I will say that although I do guitar and not other instruments, every guitar wants something different from me. In general, I write little tidbits on my steel string (Taylor 814ce), then mush those thoughts onto my goto guitar (Taylor NS72ce). Why? I don't know...Maybe the steel is more "in my face" and the NS is more "glad to know you". You probably find the same concept in the different instruments you play.

I did redo Nomad Song and have it below. I changed the C section to be the D or bridge. I liked the D section a lot so I bumped it up to the C section. I have never thought about "overdubs" or other layers but this song screams for variations...

Thanks again, Be well, play a lot
D

[Turp]

I'm not alone!

Compositionally speaking, my music center or inspiration is the desire to create and build on little arpeggios or melodies. Interesting but that ends up being a middle-out process. The melody develops then solidifies, then I create an intro and the finale.

I have also found it hard to explain what I play to people. Usually, I end up saying it's Fingerstyle which encompasses multiple styles and genres. My first paying gig, my playing partner had told the venue I played Jazz. I told him I didn't play Jazz; He say it sounds like it though. I've had people say they thought I played Classical.

Thinking about it, I'll classify it as MDF Guitar from now on; Multi-Dimensional Fingerstyle. Just kidding, but I'll think about it.

I too am inspired by the tone of particular guitars and bounce back between my Taylor GCs and Hybrid Nylons.

I'm listening to your Sound Cloud music as I respond to your post. It really has a relaxed timbre, but grabs my ear waiting to see what going to happen next or where the arrangement will move. It's adding a nice ambience to my morning.

Glad to have a thread that resonates so closely.

[David Rock]

Turp:

You are not alone! There are probably many of "us" out there doing much the same, yet as Halftone said, sometimes it is hard to find like minded people.

I agree with the difficulty of putting a "label" on what we do. Anything defined with words are limited by the words used...What Halftone calls pseudo classical I call quasi classical you call MDF. Ok. it's all the same and different, kind of like people.

A paying gig with this style of music...How'd that go for you?

I have been wondering if there might be a proper venue for my style to find an outlet.

Regards, thanks for the kind words about my music.

[Turp]

Originally Posted by David Rock

I agree with the difficulty of putting a "label" on what we do. Anything defined with words are limited by the words used...
.

I've shared this thought as well and take some satisfaction in not being in a "box". It means the music is creative and unique

Originally Posted by David Rock

Regards, thanks for the kind words about my music.

You are very welcome.

Originally Posted by David Rock

A paying gig with this style of music...How'd that go for you?

I have been wondering if there might be a proper venue for my style to find an outlet.

Gigs-
I don't know what the market is like on a bigger scale, but I suspect it's similar. There's relatively few instrumentalists in my area and only my playing partner and myself in our city as I know that play a broad range of material. The material is matched to the venue/event. Most of my gigs have been with partner as a duo, but I've done some solo.

Most of the time it's a dinner occasion and I play music for ambience; background music.

As a duo, our music has a lot of originals but we also cover a lot recognizable genre standards Jazz- Autumn Leaves, Take 5, So What....Rock- Dream On, Don't Fear the Reaper, As My Guitar Gently Weeps, Sultans of Swing...Latin- Europa, Samba Pa Ti... other genres and so on... Most of the arrangements for the covers are ours.

But as far as venues and events- Art Galleries, Weddings, Restaurants, Parties, Socials etc...we created a meditative playlist and played Yoga sessions. We've also played a few stage performances at restaurants, microbreweries and events.

A consistent remark we get from the audience and staff at restaurants- They enjoy the relaxed ambience that instrumental provides. The music is there but not in your face or intrusive. Even though we add songs with high energy or a "hook", just to mix it up, it just adds to the atmosphere. This is not a dig at vocalists, but with many or that type performance, they are more prominent in the atmosphere and maintain it for the whole performance.

It seems a little daunting and, considering the gigging and playlist development started about 5 years ago, it's surreal because it is a dream realized. It just developed organically as we moved along, influenced by the desire to create more dimension to our music. Through the process, I've learned a lot about performing and creating music, and learned I have much further to progress...

[Halftone]

Hi David, Hi Turp,

In terms of commercial applications for instrumental music, given that one is open to gigging, then Turp has very well described many of the options open.

Turp, the idea of creating a meditative set for more contemplative events is a very original approach. That really opens up new possibilities for your clients and yourselves as musicians. What a great idea.

I no longer play out and haven't for quite a while. Writing instrumentals seems to be my strength, although if I could sing better I would probably write for vocals also.

For writers of instrumentals the commercial options are in advertising, TV, and Film. Not the easiest markets to break into. That is, unless you can play like Tommy Emmanuel , Jeff Beck, Julian Bream, or Steve Vai. Mind you all of them, save Julian Bream, had their start as Guitar Players in groups with vocalists.

Aside from the above I was talking with a friend who helps out a visual artist now and again with displays and the like. We were talking about the creative process and arrived at the term, disorganized progression.

We also discussed the balance between the intellectual, the practical, and the emotional side of creativity and writing. We decided that one shouldn't be in the way of the other. That the process will decide the priority. What do you think?

I am also curious as to what you do to generate ideas and stimulate your writing. In addition to guitar I have a Banjo, a Mandolin and a Nashville Stringed (tuned) guitar and a keyboard. Often when stuck I will switch to another instrument and that seems to help. What do you do?

Those are my thoughts for now.

John.

[Turp]

Originally Posted by Halftone

Hi David, Hi Turp,

Turp, the idea of creating a meditative set for more contemplative events is a very original approach. That really opens up new possibilities for your clients and yourselves as musicians. What a great idea.

Aside from the above I was talking with a friend who helps out a visual artist now and again with displays and the like. We were talking about the creative process and arrived at the term, disorganized progression.

We also discussed the balance between the intellectual, the practical, and the emotional side of creativity and writing. We decided that one shouldn't be in the way of the other. That the process will decide the priority. What do you think?

I am also curious as to what you do to generate ideas and stimulate your writing. In addition to guitar I have a Banjo, a Mandolin and a Nashville Stringed (tuned) guitar and a keyboard. Often when stuck I will switch to another instrument and that seems to help. What do you do?

Those are my thoughts for now.

John.

Thank you for the compliments. IMHO, based on reading and life experiences, you are correct about the balance and how priorities develop and change. For me, at it's best, it's both organic and purposed.

FWIW, an example from my experience.

"Do you ever play complete pieces of music?"

At one time, No. Even casually playing around friends, I just played melodies or middle of the songs; no into or finale. Just noodled. I was asked that question more than once. From youth, and a long part of my life, my musical "center" or "spark" was pretty melodies played through arpeggios, not complete musical works.

"Context"

In, immaturity, I made pretty sounds, with awareness through maturity, I learned to create and communicate musical messages. "Context", or developing awareness of it, really has had a lot do with how I matured.

"Context" influenced me and helped solve musical challenges present in its performance to meet listener expectations. Performing music creates influences that can be incredibly constructive. Composing and arranging for me developed out of a desire to please listeners. Through that, I learned more about myself and my music progressed. For instance, I've composed, arranged, and learned more music in 5 years than I did my whole life. My skill level developed many times over. My sound/equipment evolved. Lastly, my stage/performance presence improved. That awareness has influenced me to be able to fit, or develop and reshape myself musically. A good example of this was the Yoga gig. It was one of the more difficult things I've done. We played a one hour uninterrupted medley; moving through various keys and tempos. We adapted out arrangements and playlist to meet the needs of the listeners.

While I possessed an awareness of the influences, I really developed a more complete understanding after I began reading a book by David Byrne, How Music is Made. I highly recommend it and, in a couple chapters, he discusses how "context" influences music. It exists in nature and mankind. The environment the sound-maker exists, and their perception of it or instinct, influences their communication. This develops out of necessities to propel the species. Rather than go on about it, you can look into the essence of the topic.

As a musician, I have a desire to communicate musically in a unique manner, but effectively. My existence and development as a musician-(species) is connected to awareness of my place in the musical environments.

Bringing-it-home, speaking to the process.
Often for me, melodies and progressions are inspired by feelings/emotions I'm expressing musically. This does not make a complete message to effectively convey the communication so, cognitively, I'll develop parts or the arrangement until the message has a complete form. That said, I do purposefully develop arrangements that have little emotional inspiration. However the arrangement is usually a simpler chord progression that provides a lattice or structure to improvise melodies when I perform it. So in both cases, the emotion inspires composing and arranging, but presents itself differently.

[David Rock]

John - I love that - disorganized progression...Ha! Is that something like Chaos in Motion?

This is an interesting discussion that has moved to creativity, writing and inspiration...All they all connected? Certainly. I would add that a professional (anything) writer will tell you the road to success is through the hard work of just doing it. If you want to be a writer, then write, a lot.

As I mentioned earlier, I am sometimes surprised at how long it takes me (just me talking) to put together what I would consider 4 minutes worth of "keepable" notes in song form. That said, rarely do I play anything exactly the same. Part of that stems from the fact that I am not a polished or trained musician. But somehow through it all there is creativity and somewhere in between my so called brain and fingers, and guitar and moving molecules of air, I can generally get my message of music across in a manner acceptable to anyone within ear shot.

So creativity happens when we allow it to.

On inspiration...At the risk of challenging the moderator censors...My inspiration comes from a higher source - call it God, love, truth, The Way, soul. End of that discussion here, any questions you can PM me and I would be happy to share more.

Inspiration...Yes changing things up like musical instruments is good. It is part of why we live on a boat. We can change our living environment fairly easily. There is inspiration in everything. Think in terms of energy. Energy cannot be created or destroyed. Even your thoughts can only happen with the application of energy trough neurons. So If that is true, then what I do is try to understand the energy around me and some how use that energy to do the "work" or play of writing. This probably sounds far fetched at first glance, but think on it for a while.

I have read quite a few books trying to get to the root of it all. THe very best which I keep in constant rotation is Zen Guitar Phillip Toshido Sudo (sp). It has been an awesome, thought provoking book of applying Zen philosophy to what I do in life.

Back to inspiration...It is all in the titles of my songs...Rain in the Desert, After the wind, Someday, Have You Seen Today. There is a story behind each one.

And, It's all good.

Peace, Love, Nomad

D

[David Rock]

There I was trying to respond to an "inspiration" based on what I "thought". This song virtually wrote itself. Of course I understand it's simplistic nature. It is like the sketch I did of Nomad Song. It is rough and fresh under my fingers, but what the heck here it is.

Compositionally Speaking...I thought I was inspired by one thing but when I started to put the phrases together they came out all different.

I have been curious for a long time about using a flatted 7th major as a passing chord in key. So I ran with that idea. In the key of C I went to a VIIbMaj7 to see what would happen. After a little time there I realized I wasn't at a VIIbMaj7, what I was really hearing was a IV13 (F in the bass not Bb).

After that the rest just happened in a few minutes or so (insert a few jazz chords for the fun of it).

I am now happy to have this one "done" so to speak so now I can go back to what I know or think I know to write what I thought I was going to write. Ha! How silly!

I am happy to hear input regarding this song if anyone wants to interject feel free. It is brand new and ready for input. Composers speak up! Don't be bashful!

The inspiration comes from life as a sailor...We love to leave at first light. The day is new and full of promise. The only thing standing between us and our next destination is...currents and tides, waves, wives, wind, reefs, shallow water, gear failures, fatigue, and the rocks (don't get close to the rocks) and oh yeah there is that good-by to friends which can trump all the other obstacles.

Yes the day is full of promise what are we to do with that????



Regards
D

[David Rock]

So here we go.

Based on a response from a different thread, I thought I had asked properly for "composers input" so to speak. I am open to any constructive criticism regarding this or any other tune I have done.

So at the suggestion of AmyFB and Tony tbeltrans, I am going to try another angle on this simple but I think pretty ok song. All I do is instrumental stuff so all comunication or connection must be made through "the box".

Here is a bit a bit information regarding First Light.

Standard tuning, key of C, .. intro AABAbridgeABA outro ..construction (I realized I missed a B section before the bridge, oh well)

Intro was completely improvisational...couldn't recover that

A Section...starts at 13 seconds in C moves to F13 back to C to Am@V (position) then C to F13 again then on to second part of A section...Dm7@V to Em7@VII to [email protected] D9@V to Ab to G13 resolve to C. This finishes at :40. Repeat.

B Section...F pull off A note ho D note makes it a G# (?) To F (?) Dim@III ho g note to D7 resolve to G, then (more) F to Fdim to Dm7 (I position) resolve to C.

The bridge starts at 1:48 and was completely improv but I liked it and have kept it...Am7@VIII to Em@V to Dm@IV resolve to G. Again Am7 to Em to Dm resolve to C.

Since I am the composer the first question I ask myself is, "Is it fun?", then, "Does it speak?" What else..?

O.K. what else?

Is there a melody? I think so...

Is it hummable? I think so, therefore it is engaging...

Is there a hook? Something that I can walk away with, or as the composer wake up hearing? I think so? But? That may be my ownnership...

Is the cadence appropriate for the message? I think so...tried it faster and slower...The sun comes up every day, but although it is not in any hurry, doesn't last long (like 4 minutes?)

How is the phrasing? Ug I dont know for sure. This song is fresh on the flesh so I may seriously have some work to make it "sing" if it ever can...

Do the sections transition? I think but ?

How is the continuity between sections? I believe there are some challenging moments, I hope so. In that this is instrumental there has to be a way to catch the listener. For example the near end of the A section stops on D9...I think that is an ear opener in the key of C. There are some others that I could point out...Ideas?

Lastly...Is it interesting? Well, my bias, since I enjoy this kind of music (what kind of music is that?) Yes, it is interesting. Ha!

I have no professional training. I enjoy (and play) classical music which this is not! So in this post I ask myself some questions regarding First Light.

What else should I be asking or doing as a composer? (Based on what?, I know). Based on...I don't know exactly.

All I know is that it is fun for a piece of new music to come off these tired old hands. It is a never ending rush to do something new no matter how simplistic it might be.

So I expose myself in the hopes to get better at what I do...

All else aside I hope First Light is enjoyable.

Peace, love, Nomad
From somewhere in the Bahamas
D

https://m.soundcloud.com/davidnomadrock/first-light