ES2: A better mousetrap?

[Cochese]

Yeah. With a single source system polarity will usually be more about feedback. When I run dual source I usually have to play with the phase. What system were you using?

[martingitdave]

I have had success with the Fishman amps, Fishman SA220, Mackie boards, and other FOH sound boards. Haven't heard any "wolfetones" unless I'm playing one of their songs. ;-)

Another consideration is that loosening the transducer will have it pick up more energy directly from the sound board and less from the saddle. Perhaps you need to tighten them a 1/4 turn?


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[martingitdave]

Originally Posted by Petty1818

Just a few thoughts...First, I have been wanting to buy a new 810 for about a year now and have yet to come across a single Taylor without electronics installed. It's true that you can get a Taylor without the ES2 but it's a custom order. The problem is that you don't get to try the guitar first and most dealers will only give you a store credit if you don't like it. Taylor guitars are consistent but they all sound a bit different so I for one would not be comfortable going this route.

Secondly, I owned a Taylor with the original ES installed and it was enough to make me stay away from their invasive pickups. Removing the ES was a massive pain and the holes that were left were difficult to fill. The ES2 has less going on but that 9volt jack is massive IMO. Pickup technology changes so frequently that I would never spend $3000+ on an acoustic just for the pickup that comes with it. If you are the type of person who buys and sells guitars quite often then having the ES2 would not be a big deal. For me, I am after a guitar that will be with me for the long haul.

Lastly, I know it's totally subjective but I still think that the Takamine system is still the best out there for two reasons.. One, it's literally the easiest pickup to dial in at a live show and is 100% consistent and second; it sounds amazing. I realize that it isn't the best pickup for percussion style players but it's still tops for factory installed electronics. Oh and I realize this kind of contradicts my point about the ES2 being so invasive but Takamine guitars are far more affordable and I would only buy one for gigging. I would buy a Taylor for its acoustic tone.

Good post. I think your perspective is shared by many in the forum. I agree that one should not buy an expensive guitar for the pickup. But, given the choice between two equally excellent guitars, I would take the one with the better pickup. It wasn't an easy decision at first, but I have come to think it was the right one. Takamine does make a good pickup system and good stage guitar. I consider my Taylor 210e to be the equivalent, for my purposes.

Regarding the removal, I would agree that the last generation of ES systems was complicated. At worst, I figure I would need to rewire another system, and use as much of the existing hardware as possible. But, in 20 years we've seen little or no major advances in the piezo itself, save for the new placement by Taylor. It will be interesting to see how it all shakes out.

If I were a betting man, I would guess that the next generation of ES (ES3?) will be a revised preamp system with modeling, or something similar. I suspect it will work like a Fishman Aura system. Preload images with effects, etc. I would bet the peizos stay in the current location of the ES2. If my crystal ball is right, we will just be replacing the preamp boards. Taylor took a huge leap of faith, and spent a whole lot of money, to retool the whole enchilada, and ditch magnetic technology. I don't see them veering off on the physical elements of the ES2.


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[love the guitar]

Recently purchased a 714ce with the ES2 and dearly love it. I had k&k in
another Taylor. Love that you can "fine tune" the piezo's with the adjustment screws with ES2. I spent time getting it "dialed in" to my liking and simply
love it. Played in a duo to a crowd of maybe 700 or so last Friday through a PA
and it sounded great. Sounds fantastic through my smaller SA220 etc. I've also
had the ES1 in Taylor guitars (a 316 and a 312).....it's a personal choice but I
much prefer the ES2 overall (and in the beginning I didn't want to!)

[Cochese]

Originally Posted by martingitdave

I have had success with the Fishman amps, Fishman SA220, Mackie boards, and other FOH sound boards. Haven't heard any "wolfetones" unless I'm playing one of their songs. ;-)

Another consideration is that loosening the transducer will have it pick up more energy directly from the sound board and less from the saddle. Perhaps you need to tighten them a 1/4 turn?


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But how are you monitoring live?

On another note I'm not sure what the big deal is about Taylor's as they can be ordered without the electronics. There are gig guitars and there are the instruments you like to keep at home etc. I do get that guitar electronics become obsolete and that is always a consideration but if it's that much of an issue do what Lyle Lovett does and only use a sound hole pickup that can be removed.

[martingitdave]

For me FOH wedges or my SA220 that serves as a monitor.

[skiltrip]

Originally Posted by Cochese

I do get that guitar electronics become obsolete

I'm not sure I understand this thing about acoustic pickups becoming obsolete. Electric guitar pickups don't become obsolete.

I can see arguments made that acoustic pickups are continuing to improve, but what's good today should certainly still sound good tomorrow.

I can also see an argument to be made about aging systems more prone to failure with possibly no replacement parts, but Taylor is a pretty stand up company. I don't see them abandoning their instruments or players.


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[SpruceTop]

Originally Posted by Petty1818

Just a few thoughts...First, I have been wanting to buy a new 810 for about a year now and have yet to come across a single Taylor without electronics installed. It's true that you can get a Taylor without the ES2 but it's a custom order. The problem is that you don't get to try the guitar first and most dealers will only give you a store credit if you don't like it. Taylor guitars are consistent but they all sound a bit different so I for one would not be comfortable going this route.

Secondly, I owned a Taylor with the original ES installed and it was enough to make me stay away from their invasive pickups. Removing the ES was a massive pain and the holes that were left were difficult to fill. The ES2 has less going on but that 9volt jack is massive IMO. Pickup technology changes so frequently that I would never spend $3000+ on an acoustic just for the pickup that comes with it. If you are the type of person who buys and sells guitars quite often then having the ES2 would not be a big deal. For me, I am after a guitar that will be with me for the long haul.

Lastly, I know it's totally subjective but I still think that the Takamine system is still the best out there for two reasons.. One, it's literally the easiest pickup to dial in at a live show and is 100% consistent and second; it sounds amazing. I realize that it isn't the best pickup for percussion style players but it's still tops for factory installed electronics. Oh and I realize this kind of contradicts my point about the ES2 being so invasive but Takamine guitars are far more affordable and I would only buy one for gigging. I would buy a Taylor for its acoustic tone.

I agree that the Takamine Palathetic system is good. I've had three Taks with that pickup: two with the CoolTube Preamp and one with the Line Driver Preamp. I like the new Taylor ES2 better for two reasons: It doesn't use any extra stuff like a tube or imaging and/or modeling, and it sounds good and full with good resistance to feedback. As far as Taylor affordability with the new ES2, it's now standard on all 300 Series Taylors and above. A 300 Series Taylor is in the same price-range as Takamines with the Palathetic/CoolTube system but the Taylor 300 Series are all-solid-wood whereas the Taks with the CoolTube in that $1700 MAP category will likely have only a solid top and back with laminated sides.

I understand your concerns. I propose a possible solution: IMHO, a Taylor 310e with ES2 will sound just as good as a Taylor 810e with ES2 in a live sound-reinforcement situation. Acoustically, although sapele sounds different than rosewood, and it's cheaper in cost, I don't in any way think this makes it an inferior tonewood. Given the vagaries of live performance, a Taylor 310e with ES2 may be a better choice than the much more costly Taylor 810e. You could put the savings toward a higher-end, purely acoustic guitar of your choice that would never have to see a pickup system as the Taylor 310e/ES2 would be doing the heavy lifting for you.

SpruceTop

[Petty1818]

Originally Posted by SpruceTop

I agree that the Takamine Palathetic system is good. I've had three Taks with that pickup: two with the CoolTube Preamp and one with the Line Driver Preamp. I like the new Taylor ES2 better for two reasons: It doesn't use any extra stuff like a tube or imaging and/or modeling, and it sounds good and full with good resistance to feedback. As far as Taylor affordability with the new ES2, it's now standard on all 300 Series Taylors and above. A 300 Series Taylor is in the same price-range as Takamines with the Palathetic/CoolTube system but the Taylor 300 Series are all-solid-wood whereas the Taks with the CoolTube in that $1700 MAP category will likely have only a solid top and back with laminated sides.

SpruceTop

Good point SpruceTop! If someone is looking for a gigging guitar then a Taylor 300 series with the ES2 system would definitely be a better guitar than most Takamine models. I actually own a 310 limited edition that was closer to $3000.00 since it has koa back and sides. If there was a way to install the ES2 without sending my guitar to Taylor then I would probably do it since all of the necessary holes are already in it from the original ES system. I still wonder though how the ES2 would sound in a band mix. I know it's better than a SBT but it's still fairly warm sounding to me.

[martingitdave]

Originally Posted by Petty1818

Good point SpruceTop! If someone is looking for a gigging guitar then a Taylor 300 series with the ES2 system would definitely be a better guitar than most Takamine models. I actually own a 310 limited edition that was closer to $3000.00 since it has koa back and sides. If there was a way to install the ES2 without sending my guitar to Taylor then I would probably do it since all of the necessary holes are already in it from the original ES system. I still wonder though how the ES2 would sound in a band mix. I know it's better than a SBT but it's still fairly warm sounding to me.

I took a similar approach with the 210e as a "gig" guitar. Solid top, 3 layer rosewood laminate, bold sound, ES2. It's actually the easiest playing of the three due to the narrower neck. It probably goes without saying that I do prefer the acoustic tone of the 816ce, however. I think the 310 would have been a good choice, but I actually prefer rosewood laminate over solid sapele for the scooped mids.

You would have to send it to Taylor for sure, because you will need 3 holes drilled through the bridge plate.


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[Br1ck]

It's all so subjective. I have had at least two conversations lately with people who dislike the ES 2. To me, Taylor electronics have been a relatively elegant solution to amplification, and even though I like the sound of my Dazzo equipped guitars better, Taylors always have sounded good to me, and you must admit, the on board volume and tone controls are handy. Not a bad way to go for a giging workhorse.

[Petty1818]

Originally Posted by Br1ck

It's all so subjective. I have had at least two conversations lately with people who dislike the ES 2. To me, Taylor electronics have been a relatively elegant solution to amplification, and even though I like the sound of my Dazzo equipped guitars better, Taylors always have sounded good to me, and you must admit, the on board volume and tone controls are handy. Not a bad way to go for a giging workhorse.

The ES2 is a pretty great system but the first generation ES system needed quite a bit of work IMO. Version 3 was a big improvement but Taylor rushed that pickup and it led to many quality control problems. The ES2 is going in the right direction and I could easily see them revamping it in a few years in order to make the tone a bit more consistent from guitar to guitar.

I will say this though, I am surprised that it took this long for a pickup manufacturer to put the transducer behind the saddle. Many pickup manufacturers like Schatten offer transducers for bouzouki and mandolin that attach directly to the back of the saddle/bridge and they sound very mic-like and natural. I still think it would be awesome if someone could come out with an after market version that's thin and can attach to the back of a saddle without any real modifications.

[Petty1818]

Originally Posted by martingitdave

I took a similar approach with the 210e as a "gig" guitar. Solid top, 3 layer rosewood laminate, bold sound, ES2. It's actually the easiest playing of the three due to the narrower neck. It probably goes without saying that I do prefer the acoustic tone of the 816ce, however. I think the 310 would have been a good choice, but I actually prefer rosewood laminate over solid sapele for the scooped mids.

You would have to send it to Taylor for sure, because you will need 3 holes drilled through the bridge plate.


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Yeah, I am not a huge fan of sapele either. Mine is Koa back and sides which I generally don't like but my 310 is extremely balanced. I sometimes take it for granted but it's a workhorse for me.

[jmilkey]

I own a number of Taylors and a buddy of mine has an insanely large collection.
We have tested many of these guitars from the early ES1, Doyle Dykes, ES2 etc....

#1. If you are playing solo and/or recording you can get great sounds out of any of these pickups. Most of the sound created by a guitar comes from the players hands. Don't believe me? Put your guitar on a stand and tell me how it sounds? ( I Stole that quote guess who from?)

#2. The Doyle Dykes system was pretty amazing for louder playing and with a band or backing tracks and its unfortunate this system was abandoned. Lots of potential.

#3. The ES1 V3 system Live/electric with the body sensor turned off really sounds great through a great live system (Bose L1 Type II with B2 Bass). There are lots of advantages to using the ES1 system like this. You can also dial up a nice full sound using the Body Res options that are out there today.

#4. ES2 sounds great recorded. Send direct signal Plus Mic signal and they both have amazing qualities that when mixed are magic. But where we found the ES2 to fall short is Live with a band or backing tracks. With only the piezos picking up the body res, all you can do is EQ out the boom and dial back the pickup. Both compromise the overall sound and our conclusion is that the ES2 was developed to optimize the guitars sound recorded and in a purely Solo Guitar Singer Song Writer Situation.

I am in the process of retrofitting all my ES2 Taylors to an alternate system at this time.

Good Luck.

[Ed-in-Ohio]

Originally Posted by martingitdave

...snip...I am curious how folks are getting on with their systems? What were you using before? How does the ES2 compare?

I am stunned how good my GS Mini-e Koa sounds plugged into my Carvin AG200. Flat out stunned.

I got this fun little guitar to be a couch guitar, but now think it will get a lot of plugged-in time (both at home and in coffee houses)!

I'm impressed.