What Did You Learn Commissioning A Guitar?

[redir]

Originally Posted by mcduffnw

Or...3 days to finish it if you use the right stuff...

duff

Whaaaaa? I've been using the wrong stuff all this time? Darn it I knew I was doing something wrong!

[mcduffnw]

Originally Posted by redir

Whaaaaa? I've been using the wrong stuff all this time? Darn it I knew I was doing something wrong!

I'm serious...

Call luthier John Greven...tell him Duffy sent you, and you want to know about his finish method.

duff

[redir]

Originally Posted by mcduffnw

I'm serious...

Call luthier John Greven...tell him Duffy sent you, and you want to know about his finish method.

duff

I used to use KTM and tried other water based finishes. I could still never do it in 3 days but none the less I never got good results. French Polish and Nitro is all I do except I have been trying out an oil based varnish now too.

I know one thing about myself, rushing a finish is always a bad idea

[iim7V7IM7]

How to find a builder?
1) Go to luthier exhibition shows to meet builders and audition their work (this is the best way, but not always possible).
2) Read opinions on forums such as AGF and take what is said with a large "pinch of salt" (much group think and likes & dislikes vary wildly)
3) Choose luthiers who are experienced, who build for a living, whose guitars have been out in the world for years with proven stability.
4) Assemble a short list based on your budget, aesthetic/model preference and experience (you almost always spend more than a base price)
5) Choose 3-5 of your lead candidates to contact and have a telephone consult/conversation

Picking a luthier from your short list?
6) Be respectful of their time when talking before a deposit is made (a call & a few emails)
7) Talk with them and see how they differ in their interaction style/recommendations (very important step!).
8) Let your luthier recommend a size/model and select woods for your guitar vs. your pre-conceived notions.
9) Discuss their lead time for delivery and ensure it is part of a quotation provided (anything >2 years is difficult to estimate accurately).
10) Understand and ask about their their deposit/refund, build, delivery, evaluation and warranty policies

During your build?
11) Establish how you will communicate with each other both leading up to and during the build up front.
12) Get a detailed spec. sheet to document what has been agreed to & what is still tbd and receipts to record payments (update as you go).
13) Certain decisions are best made during the build, be clear about your desired level of involvement and get their concurrence.
14) Don't be in a rush to get it once stringed up. Let it stay with them a week or two to settle in so they can fine tune the set up.
15) Pay for two or three day air shipping and make sure the builder insures the guitar.

[mcduffnw]

Originally Posted by redir

I used to use KTM and tried other water based finishes. I could still never do it in 3 days but none the less I never got good results. French Polish and Nitro is all I do except I have been trying out an oil based varnish now too.

I know one thing about myself, rushing a finish is always a bad idea

He's not rushing the finish...and he is not using KTM, hasn't for a long time.

It's worth a call and a few minutes of your time...maybe yes?

By the way...BRAVO to you for using French Polish!!! I love French Polish...I think it is the best finish...love the look and how thin it is...love the soft semi gloss glow that you get with it. Alas...most folks today want a high gloss mirror like finish that is practically bullet proof...lest they scratch or ding or mark up in any way their expensive guitar that they are too worried and afraid about the play...er...oh...wait...that is another forum thread {;-)

duff

[mcduffnw]

Originally Posted by iim7V7IM7

How to find a builder?
1) Go to luthier exhibition shows to meet builders and audition their work (this is the best way, but not always possible).
2) Read opinions on forums such as AGF and take what is said with a large "pinch of salt" (much group think and likes & dislikes vary wildly)
3) Choose luthiers who are experienced, who build for a living, whose guitars have been out in the world for years with proven stability.
4) Assemble a short list based on your budget, aesthetic/model preference and experience (you almost always spend more than a base price)
5) Choose 3-5 of your lead candidates to contact and have a telephone consult/conversation

Picking a luthier from your short list?
6) Be respectful of their time when talking before a deposit is made (a call & a few emails)
7) Talk with them and see how they differ in their interaction style/recommendations (very important step!).
8) Let your luthier recommend a size/model and select woods for your guitar vs. your pre-conceived notions.
9) Discuss their lead time for delivery and ensure it is part of a quotation provided (anything >2 years is difficult to estimate accurately).
10) Understand and ask about their their deposit/refund, build, delivery, evaluation and warranty policies

During your build?
11) Establish how you will communicate with each other both leading up to and during the build up front.
12) Get a detailed spec. sheet to document what has been agreed to & what is still tbd and receipts to record payments (update as you go).
13) Certain decisions are best made during the build, be clear about your desired level of involvement and get their concurrence.
14) Don't be in a rush to get it once stringed up. Let it stay with them a week or two to settle in so they can fine tune the set up.
15) Pay for two or three day air shipping and make sure the builder insures the guitar.

A "couple" of thoughts?

Boy...I'm glad you didn't say a "few" thoughts {;-)

All absolutely good and important points!!!

One thing I would re-emphasize that has been mentioned is to choose a luthier whose sound/tone is basically what you are after...in the broad sense.

Don't pick a modern voice luthier...Olson, Ryan, Goodall and ask them for a vintage Martin/Gibson style voice. Don't ask a Dudenbostel, Arnold, Kovacik...vintage voice...luthier for a modern/complex....Olson, Ryan, Goodall...style voice.

Also...as much as possible...send the luthier sound clips of the voice/tone..and response you are after...that way there is less chance of mis-communication or mis-interpretation between the two of you about what tone you are after.

In this most important case...hearing is easily worth a thousand words.

duff

Bob's list is better than anything I could come up with, so I'll just suggest referring to that. He has a great deal of experience with this, and had been pretty successful at it based on our discussions.

I'd echo the idea of putting everything in writing. Sometimes people are reluctant to use "contracts" because they feel it is a sign of distrust. This is not the case at all. You should never sign a contract with someone you don't trust. A contract, the process itself, helps both parties think through their expectations, refine them, and understand the terms for both sides. It does not have to be fancy or use "lawyer language" for something like this, but it does need to be in writing.

As far as the risk goes, when I started my build with Howard Klepper he explained that if I don't like the guitar, I can return it. I would lose my $500 deposit and the shipping, but that is not a huge risk in the scheme of things. That tells me Howard is pretty confident in his builds, both the likelihood that I will be satisfied, and that he can sell the guitar without too much trouble. I'm pretty sure I won't need to take him up on that part of our agreement.

I don't know what other builders do, but I'm fairly certain at least some others have similar policies.

Interesting thread.

[Erithon]

I've read through the thread several times and it's an even better mixture of wisdom and experiences than I had hoped for. Thank you all! You have given me a lot to think about (though more insights are always welcome), and I hope others find it useful as well.

[DavidE]

Patience. Took longer than expected. In my case it was a solidbody electric. The top was not quite as figured as I expected and he shot the wrong color (by the time he finished it, he forgot about the photos I sent him) and the weight was slightly higher than it was supposed to be, but still light. Ultimately, I really liked the guitar so I let the other stuff go.

[The Bard Rocks]

Folks keep talking about patience. There's a reason. If you cannot wait, you should not start the journey. And you should expect an 'over-run" on the time frame. It's a very complicated process and unexpected things happen. Nearly all of them cause a delay. I have had 6 builds and half had delays or more than just a few days. Twice it was a finisher that they shipped the guitar to. The other time, my third build, the delay was all on the builder. After many delays in the construction, he had the nerve to show me photos of the finished product, then he kept it for another unexplained 3 months, ignoring my entreaties to have it shipped. But he was the exception, not the rule, and while it certainly has affected my feelings for that guitar (which is wonderful, only I can't seem to love it), it certainly did not sour me on the process.

I find the planning - and even the wait - very enjoyable. Each time, the builder provided me progress reports and photos and I keep a file of our conversations, sort of a birth record. Yes, I wanted to get it in my hands and start playing, but there was also a tinge of regret that our conversations would now stop, that there was nothing taking shape any longer, and nothing to look forward to. I'd prefer not to skip the planning and birth process, despite any tests of my patience. And I think that is part of why my builds occupy a place in my heart greater than the guitar might otherwise warrant.

[creamburmese]

I read this thread with a great deal of interest, because a few months ago I commissioned my first custom build from a luthier in Canada. I've bought and sold about a dozen guitars - some new but most used, some I was able to play before I bought them and some I wasn't. Though I would like to say that I know what to do to maximize the chance I will be happy with a guitar, it hasn't quite worked out that way. More I know what not to do! I have 3 keeper guitars - one I bought off the wall in guitar center - after playing extensively, one I bought used from a luthier in Canada after hearing sound clips on the web, and one I bought used from a local dealer. If there is a common thread, it's that all of them have the sound I like and are easy to play. Even the one I bought sight unseen after only hearing sound clips ( it was the short scale so I had a pretty good chance it would be easy to play). Some of the other guitars that I didn't keep also had the right sound, but couldn't overcome the problem that they were not so easy to play.

So why the custom build? I want a short scale (630) concert classical and they are as rare as Hen's teeth on the used market. Like my other Canadian guitar, I have heard sound clips (and seen reviews) on the web and I like the quality of the sound. And the builder made the neck shape and width to my specifications from cutouts I made from my current guitar.

So if I had any advice to give re commissioning - do it if it's the only way you can get the guitar you want. And as others with way more experience than I have already said - know what you want in terms of neck shape/width up front and pick a luthier who routinely makes guitars with the sound you like. And get references to make sure he or she delivers on time and on budget.

I just heard my guitar is finished - 4 months start to finish and on time including CITES paperwork for the rosewood. Wish me luck!

[jaymarsch]

Lots of good information here. When I commissioned my one and only custom built guitar, I did loads of research. I must have played 75 to 100 guitars over a 6 month period. I was paying attention to what I wanted in terms of tone, feel and other specs. I was fortunate enough to be able to go to a guitar festival and try out guitars from many different builders. I was paying attention to narrowing down who fit what I was looking for in tone, playability, overall craftsmanship and aesthetics.

Once I narrowed it down to a handful, then it was about communication skills, reputation and budget. I still could have gone with two or three but went with the person who was closest geographically. I ended up with a beautiful guitar that is a keeper for sure. It meets most of what I love in a guitar and the only change is that as I get older, I am preferring a shorter scale since I have some hand issues due to some arthritis.

I highly recommend the process and know that there are still unknowns that cannot be accounted for. By going with a reputable builder that has a lot of experience and doing your homework so you know what it is you are looking for and can communicate that clearly - all that goes a long way to minimize the risk and give you a positive result.

I hope that this is helpful.

Best,
Jayne

[hesson11]

Originally Posted by creamburmese

I want a short scale (630) concert classical and they are as rare as Hen's teeth on the used market.

I'd be very interested to know which luthier you chose, if you care to share it. THANKS.
-Bob