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#1
08-23-2017, 12:44 PM
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built-in factory electronics, amp specifically, how important?
Hi all,
Just recently joined the children's worship team at my church where I'm playing a steel string acoustic. I've been a classical nylon string guy for 15 or so years and have really only gained my knowledge of steel string flat tops within the last 3 weeks or so. Not sure if I'll get any responses by tomorrow, but I'm going to GC tomorrow to buy a guitar, I have allocated $600, but I don't necessarily need to spend it all. I've been watching, reading, and listening to a lot of electro-acoustic reviews. I've a handful of guitars in mind I'll be trying out when I get to the store tomorrow, however, I had a question about the quality of the preamps and how important they are. I'll be playing in a medium sized room and I'll be plugged into the PA mixer with the vocalists. I've been borrowing an electro-acoustic and it gets drowned out pretty quickly by the keyboardist. One of the guitars I'm interested in, the cheapest one but it has the best unplugged tone IMO, is an open pore solid top mahogany Ibanez. It has an Ibanez preamp that is really tiny physically, with only bass and treble sliders, no phase switch or anything else other than the volume pot and the tuner. There are several other guitars which have a 3 band EQ with built in tuner (Fishman). The third category have a more robust preamp with the 3 band eq, phase button, along with 'notch' and 'brilliance' knobs (Fishman Presys+). So, I'm basically looking for the best/most versatile sound plugged in, and I'm assuming the Presys+ is going to be the way to go. I like the natural sound of some of the other guitars way more than the guitars that have the Presys+ preamp, and I was just wondering how big of a factor the preamp plays in the electro'd sound of the guitar, with all else being equal? 
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#2
08-23-2017, 01:12 PM
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For the dollar spent, a Yamaha FGX800SC will be an excellent sounding guitar both plugged in and unplugged. The top is solid Sitka spruce, back and sides are nato (eastern mahogany) and the preamp onboard with built in tuner is great! The under saddle piezo uses six individual crystals and does not yield that super quacky sound so many piezo pickups often do. At $299, you'll have enough cash left over to get a strap, gig bag, humidifer, polishing cloth, extra strings, good cable, capo, and take the family out to dinner. I play in worship settings all the time and have a friend who uses this guitar (actually the older FGX700SC) and it hasn't missed a beat for 5 years.
As far as preamps go, it is nice to have one, but sometimes "more" is worse. For instance, with my AC3R, it has so many dials and buttons, it takes time to dial in "the" tone for the system I am plugged in to. Three band eq, and a sweeapable mid range (like the FGX800c has) gives you enough control without being overwhelming. My friend's Washburn has the phase switch and brilliance knob, and it took lots of experimenting with different saddles, strings, soundhole port, and eq settings to get a tone that leaves a lot to be desired. Try them plugged in. See if you can plug into a pa system too, as that will result in a much different sound than an amp.
__________________
As my username suggests, huge fan of Yamaha products. Own many acoustic-electric models from 2009-present and a couple electric. Lots of PA too. Last edited by YamahaGuy; 08-23-2017 at 01:30 PM.
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#3
08-23-2017, 01:12 PM
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raf, my advice would be to go with the Ibanez that has the best acoustic tone, then possibly upgrade the electronics later if you feel the factory stock electronics could be improved upon.
Here's the deep dark secret about factory-installed electronics: they're rarely the best-sounding available, even though they might have whistles and bells on them that make them visually impressive at first glance. The thing is that it's hard to hear your own guitar all that accurately when you're onstage, even if you're playing solo, and with other musicians playing it becomes exponentially more difficult to get an accurate idea of where you are in the mix and how your guitar is blending with them. So even though a guitar with factory-installed electronics might have elaborate EQ controls right onboard, that doesn't mean that you'll be able to hear yourself well enough to be able to use them properly. Now, I have played in churches where everyone sets their volume at their own amps and there's no one sound tech making sure everything balances, but that's chaotic and most churches try to have someone controlling that from a sound booth. My suggestion is that you get the guitar you like the most unplugged, then take it to the church sanctuary and get the plugged-in sound dialed in as closely as you can before the congregation arrives. If once you've been playing in this setting for a while you might want to upgrade your electronics, but having elaborate tone controls on the upper bout of your guitar isn't really all that important or necessary (or desirable, even.) Just get something that gives you a good basic sound that the church's sound tech can do something with. Here's an interesting observation of human nature that relates to this: over the years as a gigging musician, I've noticed that the performers who have the most elaborate, complex and expensive sound gear often have the lousiest stage sound! I'm not joking, I've seen this many times. The only explanation I have for it is that they have all these knobs and sliders to play with, and feel they have to use them all. They spent the money on them, after all. But what I have found actually works the best on a reliable basis is to start by running all the EQ controls dead flat, without any major tweaks. Then, as you listen to how the room responds, you make tiny little adjustments from there. Dialing in a stage sound is kind of like backing a bus or a large truck: you don't make big motions with the steering wheel, or you might slam into another vehicle. Instead you keep the wheel as straight as you can, only making tiny little adjustments to it as needed. So starting with simplicity is your best and safest choice. You should have the advantage of playing in the same room most of the time, so you can get the guitar tone dialed in and keep it there from week to week. Short version: go with the simple rig, and get more elaborate from there ONLY if you really need to. Hope that makes sense. Wade Hampton Miller
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#5
08-23-2017, 02:07 PM
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Consider a Taylor 114e or 110e with ES2. They were basically designed with this budget and purpose in mind. If you can swing $1000, their 200 deluxe models are excellent instruments. The factory electronics are extremely natural compared just about every other factory system in that price range. The only possible downside is the narrow nut width coming from classical. Also take a look at a Martin DSR or DSR2.
If you can find a used Yamaha LL16 or LL6, I think you might like it coming from classical. Solid Englemann spruce top on solid rosewood (LL16). The pickup is passive but surpisingly natural sounding. Best of luck.
__________________
"Lift your head and smile at trouble. You'll find happiness someday."
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#6
08-23-2017, 02:08 PM
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Quote:
 great analogy! thanks for the quick replies. YamahaGuy, my coworker is a Yamaha guy and he INSISTED that I get my eyes off price and take a look at some Yamaha's. It got me looking at most of the Yamaha's, although I missed the FGX800 somehow... The Yamaha's seem like a no-brainer. I was actually set on buying an AC1M or an A1M for a while. I'll definitely be checking out the FGX800C.Wade, I like your take on it as well. The person on the mixing board should be able to mix me in appropriately. They have an EQ strip on the channel mixer after all. I experienced not having any opportunity to "dial in" my sound when we did rehearsals and went live, and I just ended up setting the 3 channels to the default middle setting, so you make very good points regarding the electronic bells and whistles.
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#7
08-23-2017, 06:16 PM
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Quote:
That's not an absolute rule, but it's accurate as far as it goes. The Taylor system where they've only got three or four buttons on there is a good one. For years I used the Baggs RT System where the only controls I had on the shoulder of the guitar were volume, treble and bass. When they later came out with a more advanced version of the preamp that also had a midrange control, I had one put in one guitar but ended up turning that midrange control off completely, and never used it. I got a better sound that way. Sometimes guitar shoppers will decide to get one guitar over another because Guitar A has an onboard tuner as well as tonal controls, but Guitar B only has the tonal controls. "This way I won't have to buy a tuner, it's all built in!" is how a lot of newbies think, and that's exactly how the company that built that guitar wants you to think. But the trouble is that - as often as not - those onboard tuners built into the guitar preamp are not particularly accurate. I've had a couple of guitars where those came stock, and neither were the least bit trustworthy; in fact, both were WILDLY inaccurate. I still used my Snark or TC Polytune clip on tuners with those guitars. So don't let the presence of an onboard tuner sway you into thinking that the guitar with it is "the better deal." It's not. If you've got two acoustic-electric guitars at the same price point, one with lots of dials and sliders and a tuner, the other with just the bare bones of a pickup system, the bare bones guitar is going to have better quality electronics. As a rule. All those extra gadgets and widgets are there just to make you think that that guitar is the better deal. But when those whistles and bells are either absent or minimal, chances are that the pickup itself will be of better quality. Hope that makes sense. whm
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#8
08-24-2017, 05:02 PM
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Takamine. Haven't found anything better electronically for the price. If you can come up with the extra cash, their solid body pro series sound awesome unplugged as well. Other than that, find one you like unplugged, and the electronics are a no brainier. Plug and play with little to no fiddling around necessary.
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#9
08-24-2017, 06:29 PM
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Thanks again for all the replies.
I ended up buying a Yamaha AC1M, sounds incredible to my ears. I had a 15% off coupon, and although Yamaha was on the exclusion list, GC told me if the computer lets them run it, then it's good (and the coupon worked). So all in all, I got a $499 guitar minus 15%, which brought it down to $424, allowing me to get a nice $60 gig bag, a decent capo, a strap, and a humidifier (pretty sure I was up-sold on the humidifier, it's the kind that goes inside the hole). Total came out to $602, so 2 dollars over budget, not bad. The GC salesperson was a guitar enthusiast, so that helped, and the manager was really helpful as well. I tried a range of instruments. Some of them had strings so oxidized they were black. They made my fingertips black almost immediately and were nearly impossible to do slides, pull off, and just generally play well on. I played the Yamaha FGX800C first, fell in love with it immediately, although it had the worst strings out of all the guitars I tried. I was impressed with how well it played even with the disgusting strings. I played the all mahogany Ibanez, and while I really enjoyed it, it wasn't the right tone for the intended purpose. It would make a nice personal guitar, but I didn't feel compelled to use it for worship. The strings on it were toast. I played a Seagul Entourage but it sounded too bright to me, spent the least time with that one. I played a Martin X series and the strings were depressingly bad. Didn't gel with it at all. Turns out the Yamaha AC1M had just been unboxed yesterday, so the strings and the guitar were pristine. I A/B'd both the Yamaha FGX and the AC1M in the personal rooms they have at GC and they both sounded great, but the tone on the AC1M was more alive to my ears. This was probably due to the strings being black on the FGX. I really tried to convince myself to get the FGX, but ultimately, I knew the AC1M was the one. I took it home. Some funny/interesting things: -The salesperson sprayed the guitar with a bottle of cleaner directly at/on the top of the guitar, around the hole and the strings. He was careful, but I would've sprayed the cloth rather than the guitar. -When my wife got home, she wanted me to demo the guitar for her. I went and grabbed a brand new pick. She had just pointed out the protective plastic on the pick guard and I proceeded to peel it off. I then powerfully strummed out some chords to demonstrate the projection of the guitar and it's rich tone. I then stopped to admire the finish on the guitar and saw nasty wide scratches on the pick guard. My face contorted. I looked at my pick and it was a defect. I had bought some Jim Dunlop extra hard picks a while ago, and half of the picks in the bag were defects. This particular pick had the tip cut off in half with a really rough jagged edge on it. I couldn't believe it. On the plus side, my wife said she's glad I scratched the guitar first. It's true, had someone else done it, I'd probably become a very nasty person. -Just yesterday I was researching "pick guard vs no pick guard acoustic", lol... Really glad I have a pick guard. A couple of pics, one showing the scratches:  
Last edited by raffivegas; 08-24-2017 at 06:38 PM.
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#10
08-24-2017, 06:54 PM
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Not cool about the scratches, but could've been worse. Congrats on a sweet guitar! I love the A-series! I know where it will be played and will put in a few words with the Boss for a blessing.
__________________
As my username suggests, huge fan of Yamaha products. Own many acoustic-electric models from 2009-present and a couple electric. Lots of PA too.
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#11
08-24-2017, 07:10 PM
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That scratches make it a cool gig guitar. Gives you street cred. :-). Congrats on a lovely choice.
__________________
"Lift your head and smile at trouble. You'll find happiness someday."
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#13
08-25-2017, 05:43 AM
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Quote:
Also, go to your venue if you have access and practice getting the sound you want through that PA. Be aware that it most likely will sound different with voices and other instruments in the mix, and familiarity with the controls is best learned in rehearsal than in performance.
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