Just Because Its Progress Doesn't Mean Its Good

[Wengr]

Originally Posted by zabdart

Well, the History Channel is rather insistent that the Aliens did it.

Maybe illegal aliens did it as Pharaoh could not afford the minimum wage?

[mjz]

Originally Posted by Wengr

What it means is, if you have some extraordinary theory, (or any theory really), as to how it was completed, then it is on you to provide evidence.

No it doesn't. I don't remember that in the rules. Last I heard we discussed stuff here. If it's too far out with you that's cool. But in really bad taste to attempt to squelch someone else's disscusion points.

Originally Posted by Wengr

Lack of knowledge as to how something was done thousands of years ago is not evidence of anything. In the context of this discussion there is no practical difference, because it's all stuff that, if you are proposing it, then you must show evidence of.

Never said it was. You however proclaim evidence where it doesn't exist. No one knows when, how, or why the pyramids were built. Yet here you are trashing on a fellow forumite. Waz up with dat?

Originally Posted by Wengr

And you have shown zero evidence.I don't know how much clearer it can get. A lack of consensus about something does not in any way mean that everyone is wrong.

wow you are awfully defensive aren't you? I didn't say you were wrong. Never said I was right, either. My response to your post..

Originally Posted by Wengr

Just because we do not have enough evidence to be sure of the exact processes used, does not mean that any processes beyond our ability to understand were used.

was simply....

Originally Posted by mjz

Doesn't mean it wasn't either.

Earth shattering, huh?

You may want to chill a little. There's a Be Nice Rule on the AGF. Or, you know.... don't. Our choices are our own.

max

[mjz]

Not out to be right or prove everyone wrong. My only point related to progress and the building of things like the pyramids was posted back a few pages.

Originally Posted by mjz

I would suggest that trying to apply our present understanding of progress limits our analysis. When we categorize progress only in the material physical realm -- it may not be progress at all.

max

I think there's more to reality than matter. And I think the realms beyond matter were once better understood then they are now.

That is all.

max

[Wengr]

Originally Posted by mjz

I think there's more to reality than matter.

Sure, energy, fields, fundamental forces, and a bunch of other stuff I don't completely understand.

Originally Posted by mjz

And I think the realms beyond matter were once better understood then they are now.

Ok. And you think that because.............?

[SongwriterFan]

Originally Posted by zabdart

Heroditus was writing at a time when the pyramids were already more than 1,500 years old, so how can we take his written account at face value? Especially when archeological evidence seems to contradict it?

Supposedly Egyptians TOLD him that slaves were used to build the pyramids. Any reason to disbelieve them?

As to the "archeological evidence", perhaps this article (found through a google search) will explain it a bit better:

http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/fir...kers-after-all

Again, nobody was claiming that the pyramids were built EXCLUSIVELY by Egyptians (or if they were, that would've been highly doubtful). But this bit of evidence certainly isn't enough to claim that slaves were not used to build the pyramids at all.

[jersey]

Get off my lawn.

[mjz]

Originally Posted by Wengr

Sure, energy, fields, fundamental forces, and a bunch of other stuff I don't completely understand. Ok. And you think that because.............?

Because I have experienced the moment.
And being there is a pretty enlightening thing.
Not in any mystical way ... in a perspective and connectedness way.

I can point to three very distinct times when my brain was empty enough to experience actual reality. Only three in a lifetime so far.

Also, try as we might, we can't explain consciousness. It is a form of energy that we simply can not define.
We don't even have a good handle on energy let alone the form we call consciousness.

Yeah, yeah E = mc2.
From where did it originate? And in what forms does it manifest itself?

I understand this doesn't prove energy's definition includes reasons beyond our current understanding through using our well understood five senses -- but there are simple things like intuition, deja vu, the placebo effect (The Law of Reciprocity) even syncronicity that point to properties beyond our well understood 5 senses.

I choose to not limit myself to the presently defined. I've had experiences that just are not easily defined by our physical understandings.


I believe -- no, I know -- our minds are cluttered with all of the things we call progress in this thread -- the physical. Things that steal our attention -- our energy. It means we are kept from the moment. In essence kept from reality. Our perception is our reality. Not the reality.

When an antelope sees a lion it freaks out. Fear/flight instinct takes over. The antelope runs. Tries to survive. A natural reaction in the physical realm.
However, when the threat is gone, an antelope just goes on being. Eating, traveling, interacting with the herd. Just being. The fear is gone.
When is the last time you could just be?

When we see the lion the same thing happens. But when the threat is gone -- we still worry about the threat. It's in our mind. We retain the experience and use it to drive further interaction. This keeps us from experiencing the moment. From experiencing reality.

Progress, possessions, matter .. they do the same thing.
They clutter our mind and keep us from reality.

Ancient humans did not have near as many distractions as we do. There wasn't the "progress" we have now. There wasn't the amount of material desire we have now. Consequently ancient humans had the potential to experience reality more fully than us. And I believe it offered potential to ponder all of reality to a far greater extent. Forces like magneticism and undertsanding like geometery and numerology played a more important role.

But here's the single reason I believe that matter is not the substance of the universe and that conciousness is.

At the very core of human existence is DNA. It's matter, right? Well, explain to me how this piece of matter was constructed with instructions and coding built right in it if there was no consciousness before it? From where or how or why did this encoding manifest itself in this matter?

I think we've regressed in our understanding of conciousness. This physical stuff is temporary. But energy -- manifested in us presently in the form of conciousness -- is a constant. The Conservation of Energy tells us energy can be neither created nor destroyed, but can change form.

Heavy freakin duty, huh?

max

[SongwriterFan]

Originally Posted by mjz

I can point to three very distinct times when my brain was empty enough

MUST resist temptation. MUST . . . . . RESIST . . . . .

[mjz]

Originally Posted by SongwriterFan

MUST resist temptation. MUST . . . . . RESIST . . . . .

See... your brain is cluttered.
Thanks for the compelling illustration.
Just be Song.... just be.

[SongwriterFan]

Originally Posted by mjz

See... your brain is cluttered.

No . . . I resisted.

[duff beer]

Originally Posted by mjz

Heavy freakin duty, huh?

max

Umm...no. Step away from the bong...

[mjz]

Originally Posted by SongwriterFan

No . . . I resisted.

Your missing it.
That was your final action... the thought of dumping on me and resisting cluttered your mind.

Unlike 'ole Duff here.

Originally Posted by duff beer

Umm...no. Step away from the bong...

[Wengr]

Originally Posted by mjz

Because I have experienced the moment.
And being there is a pretty enlightening thing.
Not in any mystical way ... in a perspective and connectedness way.

I can point to three very distinct times when my brain was empty enough to experience actual reality. Only three in a lifetime so far.

Also, try as we might, we can't explain consciousness. It is a form of energy that we simply can not define.
We don't even have a good handle on energy let alone the form we call consciousness.

Thanks for the detailed response. Personally, I have not encountered previously the concept of consciousness being described as energy. Is there scientific consensus here, or is it just your opinion?

Originally Posted by mjz

I understand this doesn't prove energy's definition includes reasons beyond our current understanding through using our well understood five senses -- but there are simple things like intuition, deja vu, the placebo effect (The Law of Reciprocity) even syncronicity that point to properties beyond our well understood 5 senses.

I would agree that there are many psychological processes that are not well understood. But that does not infer a connection to the state of the universe and physical processes that we also try to understand. Where you see some connection, I see none.

Originally Posted by mjz

I choose to not limit myself to the presently defined.

It's fun to do thought experiments, but imo to become believable, it must be shown.

Originally Posted by mjz

I've had experiences that just are not easily defined by our physical understandings.

Why do processes of the mind have to be explained by processes of the physical?

Originally Posted by mjz

I believe -- no, I know -- our minds are cluttered with all of the things we call progress in this thread -- the physical. Things that steal our attention -- our energy. It means we are kept from the moment. In essence kept from reality. Our perception is our reality. Not the reality.

This is a slippery slope argument. Meaning if we forgo what is concerning us today, say the new iphone release , then we will just turn our attention to what is next down the list, and so on. But we cannot ever get to the bottom and still survive as there are real issues that must be dealt with. This is how it has always been.

Originally Posted by mjz

When an antelope sees a lion it freaks out. Fear/flight instinct takes over. The antelope runs. Tries to survive. A natural reaction in the physical realm.
However, when the threat is gone, an antelope just goes on being. Eating, traveling, interacting with the herd. Just being. The fear is gone.

How do you know this? The antelope has no concerns about finding sufficient food? Or other difficulties with everyday survival that are cause for concern?

Originally Posted by mjz

When is the last time you could just be?

Well, I'm 50yo with three small children, so you know.......

Originally Posted by mjz

When we see the lion the same thing happens. But when the threat is gone -- we still worry about the threat. It's in our mind. We retain the experience and use it to drive further interaction. This keeps us from experiencing the moment. From experiencing reality.

Yeah, to a degree I'm thankful for that. tends to help me avoid lions and other problematic scenarios.

Originally Posted by mjz

Progress, possessions, matter .. they do the same thing.
They clutter our mind and keep us from reality.

I can agree that possessions can be burdensome. If you stress over a pile of guitars, try say, a collection of classic cars, or various homes or rental properties. Stuff can really monopolize your time, but imo that's no less real than anything else.
If I were to rid myself of stuff, I don't think that I would come to a greater understanding of anything - but i would have a lot of time to think about the stuff I'd like to get.

Originally Posted by mjz

Ancient humans did not have near as many distractions as we do. There wasn't the "progress" we have now. There wasn't the amount of material desire we have now.

Not so sure about that. Different distractions, sure, but plenty of real problems.

Originally Posted by mjz

Consequently ancient humans had the potential to experience reality more fully than us.

Again, I don't see how struggling just to survive to a much greater extent than we do leaves a less cluttered mind then say wondering what cable channel to choose?

Originally Posted by mjz

And I believe it offered potential to ponder all of reality to a far greater extent. Forces like magneticism and undertsanding like geometery and numerology played a more important role.

So what happened to this greater understanding? Why was it not passed down? In the event that you are thinking that increasing materialism caused it to be lost over time - that is a hard sell because we both know that any greater understanding of these issues can definitely be leveraged for greater materialism, and therefore quite valuable in that regard as well.

Originally Posted by mjz

But here's the single reason I believe that matter is not the substance of the universe and that conciousness is.

At the very core of human existence is DNA. It's matter, right? Well, explain to me how this piece of matter was constructed with instructions and coding built right in it if there was no consciousness before it? From where or how or why did this encoding manifest itself in this matter?

I think we've regressed in our understanding of conciousness. This physical stuff is temporary. But energy -- manifested in us presently in the form of conciousness -- is a constant. The Conservation of Energy tells us energy can be neither created nor destroyed, but can change form.

Are you suggesting that the universe did not exist prior to the existence of human consciousness? As to dna, do theories of evolution not address this in a manner which is far more favorable to occam's razor?

Originally Posted by mjz

Heavy freakin duty, huh?

Indeed. Thanks for sharing it.